Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[Bravus]

"___the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!"Galatians 5:22-23 NLT

Correct. And which posters here do you see consistently displaying these fruits?

[Bravus]

Hint: the correlation with orthodoxy is not strong.

[LifeHiscost]

Hint: the correlation with orthodoxy is not strong.

An astute observation.We can always pray to the God that is not believed in, the God who calls those who walk with Him, friends, that the hearts of the unbelievers would be drawn to Him.

God cares!

[M. T. Cross]

This topic is drifting on into the abyss of unprovable. Not sure what flood 'stories' have to do with Stans's ariginal question.

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Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'?

1. What is a God Experience?

2. Whose God?

3. How do you know know a person hasn't had a God Experience, just because their experience is different?

Those are great questions. I could answer them all from my perspective, but I have learned not to open myself up that way around here.

The Christian answer I think would read like this.

1. The moving of the Holy Spirit to show you that you need to accept Jesus as your personal saviour.

2. There is only one true God

3. Because if it does not get you to do number 1, then it is of the Devil

[CoAspen]

I believe Christianity can be a bit arrogant at times, when it feels that the only way to God they believe in, is to follow in certain steps. When I look at the stories in the OT and even in Christs day, I see many experience that do not follow that path. The attempt to put God in a box is the bane of Christianity. We, speaking as a believer in Christ, need to let God be the controller of the human experience. If we take the attributes posted a bit earlier and applied to what often happens here, 'unbelievers', would fit the definition of experiencing God.

So for me, I don not see how I can say to anyone, 'you haven't experienced God'! Who am I to say or suggest such!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I don not see how I can say to anyone, 'you haven't experienced God'! Who am I to say or suggest such!!

Seems to me the safest path is to let the Word speak for itself.

" “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is."

John 14:5-7 NLT

"Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me."John 8:42 NLT

God cares!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

1. What is a God Experience?

2. Whose God?

3. How do you know know a person hasn't had a God Experience, just because their experience is different?

Those are great questions. I could answer them all from my perspective, but I have learned not to open myself up that way around here. The Christian answer I think would read like this.

1. The moving of the Holy Spirit to show you that you need to accept Jesus as your personal saviour.

2. There is only one true God

3. Because if it does not get you to do number 1, then it is of the Devil

Those sound like answers from a Christian denomination, MT. There are some of us out here that are not "religious" Christians in the sense that we are not bound by the dictates of a denomination. I'm gonna try to answer these questions from my perspective:

1. A "god experience" is any dream/vision; "download" of spiritual knowledge or wisdom, manifestation of spontaneous physical/mental healing, or physical manifestation that the (otherwise reasonable) person having the experience cannot explain by known physical processes. They therefore have no reasonable explanation other than "it's a god thing". Until a reasonable physical explanation is provided, the person having the experience may continue to believe it's a "god" thing.

2. It could be anyone's god. MT is just as likely to have a god experience as me. If I could broadly define god as a universal intelligence (one of the attributes on the "chief god" of any belief system), it could be an experience of a rational epiphany that strikes an atheist.

3. No one can judge someone else's "god" experience (or lack thereof).

4. How do we know we have had a "god" experience? I had NO problem recognizing the few that I have had. Most of them left me on the ground or floor wondering what just happened.

5a. Was it real? It sure does seem real when it happens to me. I cannot explain them except as divine manifestations, mass hysteria, or flashbacks.

5b. Has it lasted? My experiences don't "last" longer than a few minutes - they are so intense that a few minutes is long enough! Not all are intense - some are very restful and refreshing. If your talking about "does the experience produce lasting changes; the answer is yes - a "god experience in the very least either reinforces your faith or makes you question your own sanity - sometimes both. As far as transforming me into a "sinless" being; no.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

You know that's just a story, right? It's not even an original Hebrew story, because they borrowed it from the Babylonians.

What reasoning would tell me to believe the logic of anyone who has had only a few thousand years of progenitors to rely upon. I have a Father in heaven Who tells me His stories

The key word here is stories. It's a story that there is a Father in heaven in the first place and then it's a story that this Father is immortal.

In the end all you have is stories. And it appears that you simply choose the stories that make you feel good and/or fit your preconceived idea of what you have committed yourself to without evidence. And even when you choose the stories that tell you that you're a terrible sinner and that makes you feel shame, it still is a story without evidence. It is still a story that supports the idea that you need Jesus so you can go to heaven.

The evidence overwhelming shows us that the Bible is simply a product of myth, just like every other religious holy book.

[cardw]

I believe Christianity can be a bit arrogant at times, when it feels that the only way to God they believe in, is to follow in certain steps. When I look at the stories in the OT and even in Christs day, I see many experience that do not follow that path. The attempt to put God in a box is the bane of Christianity. We, speaking as a believer in Christ, need to let God be the controller of the human experience. If we take the attributes posted a bit earlier and applied to what often happens here, 'unbelievers', would fit the definition of experiencing God.

So for me, I don not see how I can say to anyone, 'you haven't experienced God'! Who am I to say or suggest such!!

I can understand why someone might want to retain a belief in some greater power than themselves.

The real problem is when believers take this general sense of the search for meaning and go right to Christianity as the answer.

To me, Christianity has several fatal flaws. And the singular glaringly obvious one is the injustice of condemning the whole human race for the mistake of a supposedly perfect being. And then following that up with the suggestion that the death of Jesus is a fix for justice and is the act of a loving god. This is human sacrifice plain and simple.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

what you have committed yourself to without evidence.

The insignia of the Christ of the cross, that is impressed on every cell of every human being's body, is evidence enough for me, not only that He is but that each of us are His except we choose otherwise.

Google the word "laminin" if you don't believe me, and if that isn't enough proof for a person, nothing is enough and in the end is all that person will have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-NPPIeeRk

God cares!

[Bravus]

http://www.snopes.com/glurge/laminin.asp

[cardw]

Quote:

I don not see how I can say to anyone, 'you haven't experienced God'! Who am I to say or suggest such!!

Seems to me the safest path is to let the Word speak for itself.

" “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is."

John 14:5-7 NLT

"Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me."John 8:42 NLT

God cares!

There is nothing peaceful about a religion that promises violence if you don't accept the slavery of belief. This video really expresses what many of us experienced as children indoctrinated into Christianity.

[JoeMo]

Bravus,

Thanks for the snopes post. Even though I'ma believer, I find some stuff posted as evidence of a divine designer embarassing. Have you seen the one about how water crystals turn out beautiful if you bless the water before freezing or all gnarled if you curse them? Yup.

cardw,

Quote:

There is nothing peaceful about a religion that promises violence if you don't accept the slavery of belief. This video really expresses what many of us experienced as children indoctrinated into Christianity

I watched the video you posted after making this comment; and it was hideous. What an awful way to indoctrinate even adults, much less kids!

But you used a word in your comment that says it all - "religion".

Someone earlier in this thread made a statement like "religion is the bane of humanity." I have to agree with that statement for the most part. That being said, just because someone is following a "religion" doesn't mean they are following the Christian God/Christ. I guarantee you that folks who indoctrinate children with guilt and fear are NOT following the God I know (or think I know). I'm sure they think they are.

But hey? Who am I to judge? I know I'm a half-bubble off plumb; and I'm OK with that. The God I know wants to be love and be loved; He doesn't want to torture/kill and be feared.

How do I "know" God? Why do I "beleive" in Him? Sometimes after reading through threads like this, I can honestly say that I don't "know". But in my default mode, it always feels like He's there. Maybe it's habit; but it is difficult for me to ignore a powerful benevolent spiritual presence that seems to be interested in me. Maybe it's my imagination - kind of like a child's invisible friend - like an all powerful Harvey the Rabbit. It sure feels real to me.

I find it interesting that one individual has a rotten childhood severely lacking in love and nurturing; and it leads him away from Christianity. Another has the same kind of childhood; and it seems to lead him to Christianity. Funny thing is, I find both responses to being a throw-away kid completely rational.

[LifeHiscost]

I find it unfathomable how a person can pass judgment on the Creator God of heaven, never having made the slightest effort to sidestep His detractors and learn for him/her self whether He is Who He says He is, and rather accept the lies of the enemy of souls.

I just watched some scenes from Schindler's List, the movie, having watched it in entirety when it first came out. It depicts a reality even more horrific than my memory had served me, and reveals the end result of those who choose another master, set up by the god of deceit, instead of the only God Who is love.

It is revealed in the last chapters of the Holy Bible, after this earth's time has run out, that a thousand years will transpire before Jesus comes back a third time. I believe during that thousand years, many tears will be shed as those who chose life will be apprised of why some who were cherished on this earth, are not privileged to spend eternity in the Kingdom of light, provided by He Who has been so maligned by those who choose not to believe His ability to love them, despite their personal attacks against Him and those who align themselves with His sovereign power.

There is no greater gift than the gift of Himself, and when that gift is finally rejected, the opposite of Life is all that is left.

"Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil. For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm."Eph 6:11-13 NLT

"For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him."John 3:16-17 AMP brackets, parenthesis theirs' LHC

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

http://www.snopes.com/glurge/laminin.asp

Thanks for that post, Bravus. It reminds me of another Pair/pair that came to contrasting conclusions.

"The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden— except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.”" Genesis 2:15-17 NLT

In some ways this is a statement by God much as man might say to a child, "Don't drink that anti-freeze or it will kill you." A useful product when properly used. Deadly when ingested, as many dogs have found out, I understand.

But the contrasting conclusion, meant to deceive and not to protect, but to destroy the Creator's handiwork. Too bad so many humans choose to behave like dogs, as if they weren't made with a superior mind, in the image of God.

"The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

“Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. "

Genesis 3:1-4 NLT

God cares!

[Tobiwan]

cardw, you are exactly right "there is nothing peaceful about a religion that promises violence if you don't accept the slavery of belief"

Religion and religious leaders have used hell and eternal torment in an attempt to scare and force followers to love God and also it won't hurt to send a check or other folded paper to show your love. Adventist proclaim you will only burn as long as you deserve, our God is much nicer. yea right!

The idea that God offers a choice, and then on top of all the stuff given up by saying "no thanks" They are going to punish you besides, to keep those who said "yes" in line is just plain crazy. How did we ever come to this conclusion?

The four gospel records, do they record the original plan for the demonstration of the result of saying "no thanks"? What would have been recorded if the Jewish leaders had accepted Jesus? How different would the record of the Passover week have been? How fantastic could His story have been!

What we experienced as children growing up "in the church" does not mean it was right, correct, or a valid teaching tool.

I like the thought that God is not like His enemies have made Him out to be. He is not harsh, exacting, overbearing and controlling. That all He asks and has ever asked is that we trust Him. Lucifer, trust Me, you do not yet know the result of this line of thinking and action. Now that the question has been asked, I will show you. Adam and Eve, trust Me, you will not like the learning about good and evil from experience. I will show you and the watching universe.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

" What would have been recorded if the Jewish leaders had accepted Jesus?"

The biblical record is that many did.

"The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith."Acts 6:7 NASB

It was the chief Priests and elders, unwilling to give up power, that swayed the mental assent to bring about the death of Jesus.

The most recent world wide movement that I can think of that approximates the swaying of general consensus for the destruction of many, would be Nazi Germany, a democratic nation of Lutheran Christians convinced by the subtle charismatic influence of one powerful speaker, that some needed to be done away with to solve the nation's difficulties, by destruction of the Jews specifically.

"Caiaphas, who was high priest at that time, said, “You don’t know what you’re talking about! You don’t realize that it’s better for you that one man should die for the people than for the whole nation to be destroyed.”

He did not say this on his own; as high priest at that time he was led to prophesy that Jesus would die for the entire nation." John 11:49-51 NLT

"That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9 NKJV

God cares!

[Bravus]

Quote:

I like the thought that God is not like His enemies have made Him out to be. He is not harsh, exacting, overbearing and controlling. That all He asks and has ever asked is that we trust Him.

I agree, Tobiwan, and liked all of your post. The only small correction I'd make is that it has mostly been those who claimed to be his friends who have made him out this way. By no means all of them or all the time, but Hell is an invention of believers, not unbelievers. As is the judgemental God.

[CoAspen]

x2

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Hell is an invention of believers

Since an eternally burning hell is not biblical, it is not a belief by those who receive the Word of God. The explanation then?

"“The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’

“‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed.

“‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked.

“‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’”"

Matthew 13:27-31 NLT

God cares!

[Bravus]

'No true Scotsman' fallacy is alive and well...

[LifeHiscost]

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As is the judgemental God

In the Jewish economy in Jesus day, the judge was on the side of the miscreant. Therefore the judgment was to determine the Truth for the purpose of deliverance. Since the righteousness of Jesus is accepted by me, and my wrongdoing repented of is cast off onto the goat, typifying the original instigator, I look forward to the judgment that I might be delivered from the slavery of those who feel their actions ("all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags) they perform determines their destiny.

Since every good gift is from above and Jesus promises to fulfill his will through me, I have no fear of the judgment.

Most people don't want a judgment until their wife is violated, their children are abused, or their job is given to the less qualified.

God cares!

[cardw]

Most people don't want a judgment until their wife is violated, their children are abused, or their job is given to the less qualified.

That's the point of values. That is the very reason we make up laws. Laws are a civil idea designed protect the quality of life of human persons.

What you have presented as virtuous is irresponsibility.

Under your system a Priest who is really sorry for molesting a child goes to heaven, but the child who sees religion as corrupt for protecting the priest who molested them is denied salvation.

That is why Christianity is morally bankrupt. It allows irresponsible behavior and lack of accountability. All you have to do is accept Jesus as your savior and all is forgiven even if your actions have left a complete mess behind.

And the end argument for who is held responsible is the devil made me do it. How shallow is that?

[phkrause]

but Hell is an invention of believers, not unbelievers.

I agree, its an invention of those that don't know any better.

[phkrause]

And I definitely agree with the above statement!

And as ear as I can tell God is not judgemental.