Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[LifeHiscost]

Deep appreciation for the whole post. Biblically sound, an added grace supplied for satisfaction above and beyond what we mere mortals are able to reveal on our own. Full of the Holy Spirit.

Have a happy Sabbath!

God cares!

[M. T. Cross]

lets ask lhc how hostile he was, and let rich really level on how he was not using words to evoke any emotional responses which he could not predict.

I think deb, that it becomes quite clear when it is mentioned that the constant quote with no personal commentary feels condescending and insulting, and the response to that is more quotes, that the person doing the quotes really really does not care much about how others feel. They have a jackhammer called the bible and they will use it.

[M. T. Cross]

Something I find disturbing is the constant use of the word "unbeliever".

We all believe in something. The atheists in this thread believe in science and hard evidence. I believe in other different deities.

I believe that the Christian deity likely exists. Is the same respect shown for the deities I believe in, or the science and hard evidence the atheists believe in?

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

He's cursing away as hard as he can, from within his own framework. It is deeply hostile.

I'm trying to describe rather than accuse, but seriously. Read again, with empathy.

lets ask lhc how hostile he was, and let rich really level on how he was not using words to evoke any emotional responses which he could not predict.

* * *

Hostile may be a strong word. Lack of empathy is easily perceived in the passive aggressive approach that offer nothing in ones own words. It is depersonalized. But one must assume that the poster is in full agreement with and intends the message as if it is his own.

The message of many of the quoted verses expresses unfriendly thoughts. If I paraphrased the thoughts of many of those verses, putting them in my own words and posted them, it would most definitely come across as angry, hostile, disrespectful, arrogant and rude.

[Guest]

Dr. Rich, and Neil D. taught me how to fight when I first came here. The very first night actually. Or maybe they just showed me that sometimes it's necessary? At any rate, I am coming to believe that there is a time, not to fight.

Does that make any sense?

[Tom Wetmore]

Something I find disturbing is the constant use of the word "unbeliever".

We all believe in something. The atheists in this thread believe in science and hard evidence. I believe in other different deities.

I believe that the Christian deity likely exists. Is the same respect shown for the deities I believe in, or the science and hard evidence the atheists believe in?

Point well taken. I shall revise my recent post to use a different term. Perhaps "one who doesn't believe as I [we] do" since among Adventists the implied attitude is conveyed regularly to other Christians and even fellow Adventists with whom we disagree. It is a label and labeling people is seldom helpful in bringing people closer together.

[Tom Wetmore]

Dr. Rich, and Neil D. taught me how to fight when I first came here. The very first night actually. Or maybe they just showed me that sometimes it's necessary? At any rate, I am coming to believe that there is a time, not to fight.

Does that make any sense?

More often than you think!

[kailooa]

Yes, I've been using "non-Christian" but it bugs me because the term divides the world into Christians and non-Christians, when of course things are much more complicated than that, and I don't like the us-vs-them implication either. What is a better term?

[kailooa]

Also, EmptyCross, was the "is the same respect shown" question rhetorical?

[M. T. Cross]

Also, EmptyCross, was the "is the same respect shown" question rhetorical?

A little. There are a small handful that do show that respect.

[debbym]

Quote:

I think deb, that it becomes quite clear when it is mentioned that the constant quote with no personal commentary feels condescending and insulting, and the response to that is more quotes, that the person doing the quotes really really does not care much about how others feel. They have a jackhammer called the bible and they will use it.

i understand how one might "feel" but as challenging as it may be to experience dialogue with a hammer, it is not a hammer here, it is online textual communication.

i see the dialogue came to spilling scriptures, and i still hold that it was a sincere response of belief and source of belief. and as much as we want to talk with a real person here, and feel some satisfaction in doing so, a real person is tapping the keys even when it is a quote wave.

so who dares engage the quotes, and experience the person and why they are spilling just quotes. honestly i see why the quotes come sometimes. it is a holding of a position, and why not engage on the words quoted. it is tremendous content there.

i understand if you have no clue there is love in those scriptures then you are really unable to recognize any heart in the person quoting them. there are those of us to know the love there....

the message of God's love is best preached without words to unbelievers, but this is basically a meeting place by words, not of actions. toe to toe... word for word... it can be less gracious, and then in other times more.

we all have different strengths and gifts and inabilities and abilities.... and weaknesses.

... sigh i am maybe a strange bird. i will own that all the way.

[M. T. Cross]

Deb, I am not arguing that the person using the quotes may or may not find love in them.

My point is completely different.

I posted how the constant quote using by that person was insulting.

They responded with quotes.

Thats like you telling me that swearing insults you, and me swearing at you in response.

[Guest]

i understand if you have no clue there is love in those scriptures then you are really unable to recognize any heart in the person quoting them. there are those of us to know the love there....

the message of God's love is best preached without words to unbelievers, but this is basically a meeting place by words, not of actions. toe to toe... word for word... it can be less gracious, and then in other times more.

Very well put, deb! :)

[debbym]

Quote:

Deb, I am not arguing that the person using the quotes may or may not find love in them.

My point is completely different.

I posted how the constant quote using by that person was insulting.

They responded with quotes.

Thats like you telling me that swearing insults you, and me swearing at you in response.

i hear you.

emotions can do that.

emotions can effect communication in every which way.

why not get someone running on emotion then attack them for how they conduct themselves. or better have, or allow someone else challenge them.

dealing with emotions by using just words on a forum can be tricky. they can just evaporate then your communication changes and well... it goes on and then around back again.

feeling insulted is pretty strong emotion. are you ok? then you were double insulted... but your posting seems good and strong, i think you are ok.

[M. T. Cross]

The things that I find insulting here are just a minor irritant now, because the same people have done those things as long as I have been here so most the time I ignore it.

But let me explain what really bugs me about the Bible quote thing.

Its not that someone is quoting from the Bible. While I think that when talking to or debating with someone that does not recognize the Bible as an authorative text is a bit redundant, I get the use of it to show where one is coming from. When that is done with some dialogue I can respect it even if I may disagree. However if we just look at the many many different Christian denominations around the world, we look at how many people here even will look at a Bible verse and get in heated debates on its meaning, when someone like LHC ( using him as an example, he is far from the only person that does this) simply posts a verse with no personal commentary it leaves one wondering a couple things.

1. What does he expect me to get out of that? His interpretation of it? Cause we have no clue what that may be, as no personal thoughts were shared. Does he just expect that we are just going to think like him? To me that is simply arrogant.

2. Does he think that I am not worth the time to share his personal insight with?

See this may be where my views on religion vary from what I have seen the Christian view to be. I don't see religion as something based in the need for salvation. I see it as a means to dig deeper into yourself, to accentuate what is good within. It should then spill over into how you interact with the world around you.

I wrote a thing about it, if you are interested

Why religion

[cricket]

Here are the texts in question:

Quote:

" “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves."

Matthew 7:15 NLT

" No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."Romans 2:29 NLT

"“I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan."Revelation 2:9 NLT

You don't see, cricket, how quoting, without commentary, texts about 'false prophets who... are really vicious wolves' and the 'synagogue of Satan' might be experienced as being hostile?

I thought I'd already answered this (I think I must not have hit 'submit')...so, sorry for the delayed response.

In answer: Yes. I can see that the post might have been taken as hostile. But, I also think it could have been taken as anything but hostile. In my opinion, the quotes given were not directed AT the poster in a personal attack at all, but rather as a commentary (of sorts) on the TYPES of Christians that were being talked about in the previous thread (Christians from the past, in the Bible who did a lot of killing). That, in my opinion, was what the quotes were directed AT.

Then you came in with the "no true scotsmen..." (which led me to believe that you also believed that the quotes were not directed AT the person, but rather the TYPE of Christians that were being talked about in the thread previously) and I came in with "et tu, quoque..." (as a snotty response to from me...oh! here we go again...I just love it when we point out others fallacies of logic...yawn!) and so on and so forth.

So, this thread has gone on and on. And we are not now resorting to judging how other people post, what methods they use and how it hurts us when they don't respond the way we think they should. When sometimes...just sometimes...people are people who do stuff that other people won't understand, but they're still being human and still being kind and still not meaning to offend.

Quoting others, and posting scriptures as a response is indeed, as some have said here, depersonalizing. But...depersonalizing can be less offensive. It can still get a message across, but without 'blaming the messenger'.

How many people want to get personal anyway? Everytime I try to get a personal message out, I'm told "we're here to discuss issues" not "make friends". And I'm told, "There's error in your logic." Or, I'm corrected in the word I use or the way I say or don't say something.

Why can't we just let people post the way they want to, the way they feel like posting, the way that God made them (or the way that they were magically created from stardust), however and whomever?

Here, have a video. I'm sure some here will be offended by it, so I won't "hotlink" it to the page.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I believe that the Christian deity likely exists. Is the same respect shown for the deities I believe in, or the science and hard evidence the atheists believe in?

"then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, just as I promised to your father David, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’

“But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight. So Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples."1 Kings 9:5-7 NASB

Certainly the battle lines are being drawn and are clearly visible.

God cares!

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

I believe that the Christian deity likely exists. Is the same respect shown for the deities I believe in, or the science and hard evidence the atheists believe in?

"then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, just as I promised to your father David, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’

“But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight. So Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples."1 Kings 9:5-7 NASB

Certainly the battle lines are being drawn and are clearly visible.

God cares!

See, LHC, I have no idea what you are talking about with those verses in relation to this thread, or to the post you quoted. I do appreciate that you are trying to say something, I just have no idea what it is.

Further confusing is you bring up battle lines and then end your post with "peace". What battle is it you refer to? Do you think Christians should be at war with those of differing beliefs? In that case should those of differing beliefs be at war with each other over their differing beliefs?

Why is it that we simply can not respect and try to understand each others experiences and the paths they take us on? Why does that seem so difficult?

[M. T. Cross]

How many people want to get personal anyway? Everytime I try to get a personal message out, I'm told "we're here to discuss issues" not "make friends". And I'm told, "There's error in your logic." Or, I'm corrected in the word I use or the way I say or don't say something.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

(as a snotty response to me...oh! here we go again...I just love it when we point out others fallacies of logic...yawn!) and so on and so forth.

So, this thread has gone on and on. And we are not resorting to judging how other people post, what methods they use and how it hurts us when they don't respond the way we think they should. When sometimes...just sometimes...people are people who do stuff that other people won't understand, but they're still being human and still being kind and still not meaning to offend.

Quoting others, and posting scriptures as a response is indeed, as some have said here, depersonalizing. But...depersonalizing can be less offensive. It can still get a message across, but without 'blaming the messenger'.

How many people want to get personal anyway? Everytime I try to get a personal message out, I'm told "we're here to discuss issues" not "make friends". And I'm told, "There's error in your logic." Or, I'm corrected in the word I use or the way I say or don't say something.

Why can't we just let people post the way they want to, the way they feel like posting, the way that God made them (or the way that they were magically created from stardust), however and whomever?

Well put, and it gave a little humor that helped to ease the frustration that can be a detriment to good communication. I'm satisfied to believe it really doesn't matter how God's Word is put forth in this time period, those who earnestly desire to walk where God wants them, will be accused of all the problems that exist everywhere, and the more so as we see the day of judgment approaching.

God cares!

[cardw]

I think the point of this thread is how to deal with those who haven't experienced god. I can tell you with 100% assurance that what LifeHishost is doing does not work.

I don't take it personally, but he is being passive aggressive and I think the whole sign off "God cares" really puts the disingenuous nail in the coffin.

It's the plausible deniability of, "but I was only quoting Bible verses."

I do want an emotional response to my posts, but not because I'm enjoying people's discomfort. I want people to look at what they believe in a much more honest way. Quoting back Bible verses is not honesty.

To me, it comes down to truth telling. Life is too short to play around with lies. I will mock people if they attack me with lies and that is how I perceive what LifeHishost is doing. He does not address the issues, but passively and aggressively suggests through the texts that I am possessed by the Devil.

I don't care if that is what he actually believes. It still is hostile. It actually serves my purposes for him to continue to do what he does. It demonstrates the lack of authentic interaction within Christianity. I say this because if you read the lesson Quarterlies from when I was younger you will find page after page of LifeHishost like presentations. So he may be offensive, but he was the mainstream voice of Adventism at one time.

I have no opinion on who LifeHishost is as a person and I don't judge him or his motivations, but I do reserve the right to comment on what he believes. And I will do so unapologetically, because I do believe in what is true based on reason and observation. And I do believe that what Christianity teaches is extremely harmful and sometimes it takes a psychological blow to the head to see that. That's what it took for me.

So go ahead and defend LifeHishost. I wish no ill will to him personally, but ultimately whatever is happening here is not going to work at all as far as changing the minds of anyone I know. You can learn from this or just keep doing the same thing. LOL

[cricket]

It's that last one...that makes me smile.

[debbym]

I really appreciated and enjoyed your post.

Quote:

I do want an emotional response to my posts, but not because I'm enjoying people's discomfort. I want people to look at what they believe in a much more honest way. Quoting back Bible verses is not honesty.

i think you mean by honest to be from their heart and not from their intellect? is this right? would like clarification on that.

and i did not get that you were suggested to be possessed. i think that was addressing he felt you held error and the source of those errors. this is something i think you also understand he would hold in his belief system.

what Christianity teaches and believes is very harmful if it is not held in a spirit of genuine love.

if it is not held in love it becomes a deadly and dangerous poision. mixing truth with error (misrepresentation of God's character) has always resulted in deep harm. enough truth to bait and hook and the error to kill the spirit so captured happens and it is horrible.

i have no goal or purpose or intention to change anyone's mind. that task is a sacred domain between their soul and God.

as a Christian it is my responsibility to live to honor God rather then my selfish interest. three passions moved Christ in an unselfish life in everything he did.

1. love for His Father whom he know,

2. love for people whom he knew.

3. a consuming desire to bring honor and glory to His Father in Heaven.

Quote:

It actually serves my purposes for him to continue to do what he does. It demonstrates the lack of authentic interaction within Christianity. I say this because if you read the lesson Quarterlies from when I was younger you will find page after page of LifeHishost like presentations. So he may be offensive, but he was the mainstream voice of Adventism at one time.

you sound very nobly motivated. everyone has a different experience, and not everyone can understands or speaks to everyone's issues in relation to knowing God. obviously this person LHC is just not connecting with you in any way, but being very typical of the painful kind of experience you had before. i think i would be deeply upset in this way also if i shared your experience.

[CoAspen]

For some 'text splatter' is way of communicating, but you are right, it has no meaning without the context and quite often the meaning the poster is trying to get across is not supported by the whole context of the verse/s. Some people have a difficult time expressing themselves or their beliefs thinking that text quotes tells other what they believe. I have the same problem with that as you do because I still don't what they believe. They don't seem to have a personal connection with the belief they want others to assume they have.

I call it 'text hiding'. And it is a 'in your face' texting, as if the quote is all about the person it is quoted to.

[cardw]

I really appreciated and enjoyed your post.

Quote:

I do want an emotional response to my posts, but not because I'm enjoying people's discomfort. I want people to look at what they believe in a much more honest way. Quoting back Bible verses is not honesty.

i think you mean by honest to be from their heart and not from their intellect? is this right? would like clarification on that.