Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[cardw]

from what i have read Satan works to place his attributes over God's character so when people look at God they see him instead, in order to prevent other's from knowing God. then he transforms himself into an angel of light to seduce other's to serve him, when they think they are serving God

These are the actions of a child. This is much like Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and their child like bravado that we find laughable due to it's blatant immaturity. This is not the plans of a super intelligent being.

What this is evidence of is the lack of maturity of those who wrote these stories. You have this cartoon God fighting a cartoon Devil. It becomes more and more difficult to take these seriously when one begins to understand the low intelligence of these characters of fiction.

It makes complete sense that this would be written by primitive iron age priests from a backwater kingdom. What doesn't make sense is that we give these writings any credibility at all.

[debbym]

Quote:

These are the actions of a child. This is much like Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and their child like bravado that we find laughable due to it's blatant immaturity. This is not the plans of a super intelligent being.

apparently this tactic works.

i see God being described with the exact words that i would use to describe Satan all the time. it speaks more to the intelligence of humanity as we are the ones being manipulated.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

These are the actions of a child. This is much like Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and their child like bravado that we find laughable due to it's blatant immaturity. This is not the plans of a super intelligent being.

apparently this tactic works.

[cardw]

i see God being described with the exact words that i would use to describe Satan all the time. it speaks more to the intelligence of humanity as we are the ones being manipulated.

[debbym]

Quote:

What do you do with a god who inspires his followers to write songs of joy about dashing children on the rocks? Or he sets out nations to go a rip out babies from their mother's wombs in front of the other children. Do realize that some of these punishments are simply because the other nation worships on a different hill? Josiah is praised because he sent his army to sacrifice the priests on their own alters because he believed this would defile the place of worship.

you are making it obvious you do not understand God to be benevolent, or even to exist. so you have no context available to think other then how you think. It is understandable for you to come to this position.

the psalm about the child bashing was those who had suffered everything, their own children bashed, and their homeland destroyed, having been taken as slaves to a foreign land.

the earlier veses in that psalm say

"For our captors demanded a song from us.

Our tormentors insisted on a joyful hymn:

“Sing us one of those songs of Jerusalem!”

4 But how can we sing the songs of the Lord

while in a pagan land?

then out of their brokenness and grief they sang for their oppressors

"O Lord, remember what the Edomites did

on the day the armies of Babylon captured Jerusalem.

“Destroy it!” they yelled.

“Level it to the ground!”

8 O Babylon, you will be destroyed.

Happy is the one who pays you back

for what you have done to us.

9 Happy is the one who takes your babies

and smashes them against the rocks"

it was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. a baby for a baby.

not a pretty picture but very real and the reality lived at that time.

we were not there, the history is not so complete like a video or something. we are not seeing the atrocities committed by these nations. i know they did the child sacrifice thing already themselves.

I some bad person does something, i am not going to give God credit for their decisions and actions, i am going to give them the credit themselves.

we have had our tragedies of human genocide in our recent history, and it is part of the reality of human behaviors between nations and groups. no punches pulled. look at African genocides, or the holocaust. this is part and parcel of human history and was nothing new, and still is nothing new. i don't see God taking any glory in this, it is the voice of anguish and unspeakable pain in this psalm. and people who have endured these things really understand this psalm..

i think some nation did eventually come in and take on Babylon and do these things for their own reasons. what goes around comes around, and it did, and it still does.

[cardw]

Quote:

What do you do with a god who inspires his followers to write songs of joy about dashing children on the rocks? Or he sets out nations to go a rip out babies from their mother's wombs in front of the other children. Do realize that some of these punishments are simply because the other nation worships on a different hill? Josiah is praised because he sent his army to sacrifice the priests on their own alters because he believed this would defile the place of worship.

you are making it obvious you do not understand God to be benevolent, or even to exist. so you have no context available to think other then how you think. It is understandable for you to come to this position.

[M. T. Cross]

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'? Perhaps even if they mock your experience?

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

So lets get back to this original question. Does this refer to those that have not had a spiritual awakening, or just those that have not had a life altering moment of awareness with the Biblical god? If the latter, does that go a step further and only refer to those that have not experienced him/them/it in a way that makes them want to be SDA's?

[OzarkWoman]

This is exactly what Christians teach. They teach that people need to be a slave to Christ and what this really means is they should give money to the church and promote it for free. Christianity is anti-intellectual and historically when it can't compete in the free exchange of ideas it resorts to violence, just like the god they worship does.

Do you honestly believe what you post? If you do then you have also proven that you are not intellectually honest at all.

What you posted about Christianity having people be slaves to Christ is so wrong. There are things I would like to tell you, but I have respect for the others in this forum, so I won't. It is completely up to an individual if they decide to follow Christ and how they wish to serve and to follow. Where in the heck can anyone get that someone is a slave? That is beyond me.

You want to talk about violence with the free exchange of ideas? OK....then lets talk about so many of the non-believers in the United States who flat out attack Christianity any chance they have but think that the Muslim religion is just fine. That in itself proves how unintillectual so many of you nonbelievers are. They physically attack also. I personally am darn sick of people like you posting and spreading your LIES about Christianity and the Bible. All you actually do is make it easier for some of us to believe. I would never want to be so close-minded and unintellectual that I would refuse to be honest. I guess that you can't stand how many times that the Bible has been proven to be fact and that scares you. I feel sorry for you and this will be my last to you concerning this matter because, you really make me sick with your posts.

Why are you here anyway? It certainly is not to learn anything? All you want to do is to post dishonest things and to make fun of those of us who do believe in Christ. Back when I studied and followed Wicca, I most certainly did not and would not have posted or acted the way you do toward someone of another religion. The person like that is a person with low self esteem and lots of hurt in their belly.

[OzarkWoman]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Interesting how one comes to a Christian forum and bashes God. And other members. Repeatedly. Yet is still accepted.

Disagreement is not persecution or bashing. If your ideas can't hold up to reason, then get better ideas.

I would say the same to you since you have yet to prove anything yet. You are just a nasty person who want to hate. Why are you here again? You don't have better ideas at all. All you have posted is the same old stuff that has been around forever. You, yourself, have proven that you are not able to think for yourself at all. I see all of your posts as bashing and that is all you after, so I have replied in kind.

[Gail]

I would say the same to you since you have yet to prove anything yet. You are just a nasty person who want to hate. Why are you here again? You don't have better ideas at all. All you have posted is the same old stuff that has been around forever. You, yourself, have proven that you are not able to think for yourself at all. I see all of your posts as bashing and that is all you after, so I have replied in kind.

Are you listening, Rich? This is how your viewpoint is coming across.

I know that many ex-SDAs are bitter toward the church (and God?), but I would have thought that when they left the source of all their sorrow then they would be happier people. Sometimes your posts do not reflect that.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is exactly what Christians teach. They teach that people need to be a slave to Christ and what this really means is they should give money to the church and promote it for free. Christianity is anti-intellectual and historically when it can't compete in the free exchange of ideas it resorts to violence, just like the god they worship does.

Do you honestly believe what you post? If you do then you have also proven that you are not intellectually honest at all.

I do believe what I post. All I have to do is point to the history of the Christian church and its use of violence.

You can deny your history all you want, but the evidence indicates that as soon as Christians get control they start killing people. One simply has to point to governments where Christians are killing gay people today. That's what your book tells you to do.

The only reason you don't do that is that you have a very human moral compass. That moral compass comes from the enlightenment and your ability to empathize, not the bible.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Interesting how one comes to a Christian forum and bashes God. And other members. Repeatedly. Yet is still accepted.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Disagreement is not persecution or bashing. If your ideas can't hold up to reason, then get better ideas.

I would say the same to you since you have yet to prove anything yet. You are just a nasty person who want to hate. Why are you here again? You don't have better ideas at all. All you have posted is the same old stuff that has been around forever. You, yourself, have proven that you are not able to think for yourself at all. I see all of your posts as bashing and that is all you after, so I have replied in kind.

You have proven my point. When you run out of reasons you start calling names.

I would like to point out that you did not even address one of my points. You have spent your last two posts attacking my character. That's because you have nothing to stand on. All you have is social pressure and name calling. If I weren't so confident in myself I would say you are a bully.

I would like to point out that I am in the minority in here and that for many Christians simply being an atheist is an offense to them.

I talk about ideas, not people. I have attacked Christianity, not Christians. You may interpret my attack on Christianity as an attack on you, but that is your choice.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: OzarkWoman

I would say the same to you since you have yet to prove anything yet. You are just a nasty person who want to hate. Why are you here again? You don't have better ideas at all. All you have posted is the same old stuff that has been around forever. You, yourself, have proven that you are not able to think for yourself at all. I see all of your posts as bashing and that is all you after, so I have replied in kind.

Are you listening, Rich? This is how your viewpoint is coming across.

I know that many ex-SDAs are bitter toward the church (and God?), but I would have thought that when they left the source of all their sorrow then they would be happier people. Sometimes your posts do not reflect that.

Gail,

I am more interested in what is true than being liked. If I changed how I express my truth every time someone got mad at me, I wouldn't have anything left to say.

Almost every post is an offense to me, but I don't complain because everyone has a right to express their truth.

In an even playing field Christian beliefs don't hold up. That's not my fault and it would be dishonest for me not to be honest about that.

Basically the solution is to present ideas that do hold up in the free exchange of ideas.

[Gail]

I hear ya. It's not whether or not you are liked or have different views, but play nice, everyone is the message. I know it's a volatile topic.

Please regard the clues that others are passing along, such as "you are bashing". And I am aware that works both ways

[phkrause]

Basically the solution is to present ideas that do hold up in the free exchange of ideas.

Well it seems that that is exactly what a number of posters have done. Gail, Pam, etc. And as OW has mentioned, do you have an alternative solution? No! As they say if you don't, than you are just as much the problem. I see that so much in the political forum, nothing but putdowns but no solutions, from either side. You put down God because of the OT. Have you ever thought why God allowed his prophets or writers to put all that stuff into the Bible? Since obviously it doesn't paint a very good picture of him, to you and many others. Yet those that have Faith in God and his book, have read those same passages and are willing to allow God to explain himself someday. Yet you knock us for our beliefs, which to us our not luticris(sp) Some things are not easy to explain, and I got no problem saying that, that will happen in due time. Again I have no problem waiting. God has never promised anyone of us a rose garden life. I believe Jesus tells us that we will be persecuted for believing in him! Well I'd say that that has come true. And again, I have no problem accepting that either.

[Guest]

One simply has to point to governments where Christians are killing gay people today.

What governments would those be?

[Bravus]

Rich has posted scriptures, and the response has been 'that is taken out of context'. What context makes it morally right to bash out a baby's brains against a stone.

The other response has been 'that's in the OT' - but Adventists believe in the whole Bible as a revelation of God, don't diregard the OT as many other Christians do.

I could wish Rich was a bit more moderate in his language sometimes... but the bottom line is that the solid, Biblical challenges he has raised have not been taken up or addressed, at all.

The only response has been complaints about tone. How about addressing substance?

[cricket]

My complaints about tone still stand.

As for substance, I cannot logically refute these Biblical challenges regarding the brutal deaths of innocents. As I mentioned in another thread, sometimes...sometimes an argument is so convincing it is worth accepting.

_______

This is my exit from Club Adventist. It is my exit from Christianity. Farewell all.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Basically the solution is to present ideas that do hold up in the free exchange of ideas.

And it does seem to be accepted that "free exchange of ideas" includes the most blasphemous and vitriolic verbiage against God and His idiotic followers, considered "truth for the sake of truth". Personally I'm of the opinion the One Who has the capacity to make Truth happen is more to be trusted than those who side with the "castouts" from the home they were willing to destroy to gain their own ends.

"This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.

Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens,

“It has come at last—

salvation and power

and the Kingdom of our God,

and the authority of his Christ.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters

has been thrown down to earth—

the one who accuses them

before our God day and night.

And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb

and by their testimony.

And they did not love their lives so much

that they were afraid to die."Revelation 12:9-11 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Commoners' Plight

By Tia Ghose, LiveScience Staff Writer | LiveScience.com

Quote:

While an Egyptian pharaoh built majestic temples filled with sparkling treasures, the lower classes performed backbreaking work on meager diets, new evidence suggests.

An analysis of more than 150 skeletons from a 3,300-year-old cemetery at the ancient Egyptian city of Amarna reveals fractures, wear and tear from heavy lifting, and rampant malnutrition amongst the city's commoners.

The discovery, detailed in the March issue of the journal Antiquity, could shed light on how the non-elites of ancient Egyptian society lived.

A good example of Old Testament evidence of rulers who did not serve any but themselves. More modern examples might be Idi Amin, Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, Kim Il-sung, adnaseum(sp), all protaganists of the God of Heaven and earth.

God cares!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Basically the solution is to present ideas that do hold up in the free exchange of ideas.

Well it seems that that is exactly what a number of posters have done. Gail, Pam, etc. And as OW has mentioned, do you have an alternative solution? No! As they say if you don't, than you are just as much the problem. I see that so much in the political forum, nothing but putdowns but no solutions, from either side. You put down God because of the OT. Have you ever thought why God allowed his prophets or writers to put all that stuff into the Bible? Since obviously it doesn't paint a very good picture of him, to you and many others.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Basically the solution is to present ideas that do hold up in the free exchange of ideas.

And it does seem to be accepted that "free exchange of ideas" includes the most blasphemous and vitriolic verbiage against God and His idiotic followers, considered "truth for the sake of truth". Personally I'm of the opinion the One Who has the capacity to make Truth happen is more to be trusted than those who side with the "castouts" from the home they were willing to destroy to gain their own ends.

This is an example of your tendency to exaggerate. When did my disagreement progress to me calling you idiotic?

The problem is when you can't defend your position from reason or evidence you resort to complaints of bashing. If your beliefs support the idea of a god that would endorse the kind of evil and violent actions he ordered in the Bible as good then that is a sick belief. That's not hard to observe.

Instead of attacking me or complaining, come up with some real reasons for your beliefs. And if you can't defend your beliefs honestly, then maybe you need some new beliefs.

I will not apologize for telling the truth based on reason and evidence. Don't redefine what I'm posting as bitterness or blasphemy or some other subjective attack on me. Deal with ideas.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

One simply has to point to governments where Christians are killing gay people today.

What governments would those be?

You know you could at least bother to do a google search before you post this question.

Here is the wikipedia link on the bill that has been supported by American evangelicals to be passed in Uganda that originally included the death penalty for homosexuality.

Anti Homosexuality Bill

Here's an article the reveals what the Christian evangelical leaders have to say about this bill and their support.

Tony Perkins of the Famil...ty bill

David Kato, an outspoken defender of gay rights in Uganda was beaten to death with a hammer by Christians. The reason this happened is because the Bible says to do this. It is not hard to find. The Bible teaches people to do evil things. Without the Bible, and Christians who believe it's the word of god, there would be no reason to pass a law that condemns homosexuals to death.

The Christians that did this thought that they were doing the will of their god.

This is why I believe that Christianity is an evil belief. I think that it requires Christianity to make normally good people do evil things. At its core, it presents violence as the final solution. None of you can prove different because you know the final act of god in regards to the people of this earth is the destruction of the wicked. I don't care how nice you are in the mean time, the final act is violence and because of this, the core value is fear.

I don't have to bash Christianity. It bashes itself. This is your religion. You should be ashamed to associate with it.

[phkrause]

I don't have to bash Christianity. It bashes itself. This is your religion. You should be ashamed to associate with it.

No you got that backwards, they should be ashamed to even call themselves Christians.

[Igakusei]

The problem is that they're just as convinced they're the true Christians as you are that you are. They probably think you're a backsliding compromiser for allowing homosexuality to go unpunished. And all either of you have is appeals to authority and a belief that the Holy Spirit leads.