Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[kailooa]

I don't think it's fair to call a person a troll for participating in a discussion here as an acknowledged non-Christian. I don't see any trolling happening in this thread, personally.

I agree that throwing around Bible verses rather than speaking one's own thoughts is problematic. It's one thing to express your thoughts and quote a Bible verse to illustrate your point. But if you just quote the Bible straight up, you're removing yourself from the dialogue entirely. How can a person engage with you if you're no longer speaking with them?

Some of the original questions have been diverted and I didn't go back to read the whole thread just now, but I wanted to share what I've come up with myself as a rationalization for why Christians kill people in the name of Christ. It's the same as with other religions. Basically, religion has to do with what happens to us after we die--with our eternal selves, which transcend death (at least in some form, in all the religions I can think of, even if that form is dissolving into a great Oneness.) So naturally people are willing to kill and die for their religious beliefs. And in my Christian worldview, it makes perfect sense that Satan would use this life-or-death tool against humans more than any other tool he could use. He would naturally work extra hard at deceiving Christians who believe they are carrying out God's word--what could be more powerful?

Like I said, it's a total rationalization, and I own that. It makes sense to me, though, and I felt a lot better about the question after I realized that this is the answer I believe. So there ya go. Faith in action. :)

[cricket]

Originally Posted By: Live4Him

I would be more than happy to try and give a balanced answer to this. My question is if you really want the answer or are you just trolling? Not much sense in, nor is it worth the wasted time in giving a reply if a person is just trolling.

So if I am not a believer and I point out where Christianity is immoral I'm a troll?

Christianity can't hold its own in the free exchange of ideas. This is evidenced when Christians stop addressing the topic and began labeling their detractors.

I don't know what you mean by a balanced response. I would rather have a truthful one.

Welp! There's a bunch of "almost True Christians" here on this site and if we can't hold our own in the free of exchange of ideas, and you're aware of it, then are you surprised?

There's the truth. Whatcha gon' do 'bout it? Go on postin'?

(Above, taken with a grain of salt and a shake of pepper.)

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

the degree where it is posted back at those that do not follow the bible, with zero commentary other than the verses by the poster is a bit inane. It leaves one wondering if they really have any thought process going on or if they are just quoting by rote.

I have other thoughts. I just don't have any better or as good.

" His voice is heard, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love.” “With everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee.” How amazing is this love, that God condescends to remove all cause for doubt and questioning from human fears and weakness, and takes hold of the trembling hand reached up to him in faith; and he helps us to trust him by multiplied assurances and securities. He has made us a binding agreement upon condition of our obedience, and he comes to meet us in our own understanding of things. We think that a pledge or promise from our fellow men, if recorded, still needs a guarantee. Jesus has met all these peculiar fears, and he has confirmed his promise with an oath: “Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.” Hebrews 6:17, 18.

"What more could our Lord do to strengthen our faith in his promises? The clean heart, the right spirit, he requires of us, which is the gift of Jesus Christ, Christ worked to this end, and man co-operates with him. The divine and human efforts are united. The white robe, the crown of righteousness, an eternal weight of glory, is laid up for those who love God and keep his commandments. Then let all pride, all self-sufficiency be laid at the feet of Jesus. He is faithful that hath promised. If we approach him with a lowly, child-like trust, he will give us his grace and the treasures of eternal life as a free and everlasting gift."The Review and Herald April 5, 1887

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

I for one refused to have an abortion in the face of an atheistic family that pressured me to. I also could not lift a gun against another. This is the result of my faith, my Christian faith.

Gail, thank you for giving the witness of your own that somewhat details the natural instinct and response to God's call in your life. I would hazard an assumption that it was easier for what you followed than doing what the enemy of souls was defining as a better solution.

While in our flesh we might see the world's view as being easier, the Christ within us will answer with this.

"For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.”"Matthew 11:29 NLT

Not to mention why those of this world do not see it that way.

"Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”" John 18:36 NLT

Maybe this is a topic that could be carried on in another thread.

God cares!

[Bravus]

Every non-Christian here (and my confused self) has posted in complete sincerity throughout the thread. There has been no trolling.

The question was asked in good faith by Stan, and attempts have been made to answer it in good faith.

Are people interested in answers to the question?

[Bravus]

Debbym's post started well - love them, show them God's love.

Probably better to have stopped there rather than to start talking about other trolls in other places.

I still say that speaking the truth - as Jesus did, and yes, sometimes forthrightly - is also crucial.

It flabbergasts *me* that telling Christians to tell the truth is even necessary: there's a commandment about it.

[Bravus]

The 'no true Scotsman' fallacy was outlined by philosopher Antony Flew and is laid out as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Quote:

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again". Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing".

In the end, he defines a true Scotsman as someone who would not commit terrible crimes. Under that definition, no true Scotsman can ever commit terrible crimes, and anyone who commits terrible crimes can never be a true Scotsman.

It is a convenient, but dishonest, way of excepting one's own in-group from ever doing anything bad, and therefore being able to claim that one's own in-group is better than other people.

The statistics for things like divorce are approximately equal between Christians and non-Christians in America: but using the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, it's easy to decide that anyone who gets divorced was not a 'true Christian', so therefore Christian beliefs about marriage are superior to other beliefs. In the face of the facts.

The issue in this thread was Christians killing in the name of their faith. We hear a lot around here about how terrible Islam is when Muslims kill for their faith - but of course there is also the 'no true Muslim' fallacy for those in that in-group.

The Christians who killed for their faith were Christians. They believed, they prayed, they read the Bible, they tithed, they kept the commandments, they were exactly as Christian in every way as those who post here. If the term 'Christian' means anything, they were Christians.

Using the 'no true Christian' fallacy to 'define them out' of Christianity is a dishonest move, *especially* when such consideration is not extended to the followers of other faiths, and *especially* when claims for Christianity's exclusive moral excellence are made.

Far better to say 'Yes, Christians have killed for their faith. We now believe they were misguided about what God wanted from them, but it happened and it's regrettable.'

That would be an honest response.

[Bravus]

Here are the texts in question:

Quote:

" “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves."

Matthew 7:15 NLT

" No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."Romans 2:29 NLT

"“I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan."Revelation 2:9 NLT

You don't see, cricket, how quoting, without commentary, texts about 'false prophets who... are really vicious wolves' and the 'synagogue of Satan' might be experienced as being hostile?

[Guest]

I for one refused to have an abortion in the face of an atheistic family that pressured me to. I also could not lift a gun against another. This is the result of my faith, my Christian faith.

That others can do so is beyond my understanding.

That they can do what? Have an abortion, or lift a gun against another? Or both? Do you mean, lift a gun against another for murder, or for self defence? I'm assuming you mean self defence, in which case, it is not in the same category with having an abortion. Unless of course, the mother is going to die from giving birth.

I'm glad you didn't have the abortion. And I know you are too. :)

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Spell casting ??? Never heard that one before.

Who or what considers the Bible scriptures as spell casting ??

What one religion calls "spell-casting", another religion calls cursing or rebuking. There are definite curses and rebukes in the Bible. For example:

Quote:

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.(Rev. 22:18)

Sounds a lot like a curse to me.

[Gail]

Quote:

Far better to say 'Yes, Christians have killed for their faith. We now believe they were misguided about what God wanted from them, but it happened and it's regrettable.'

That would be an honest response.

Yep. As a Christian I would have no problem with that; after all Daniel and Moses did the same thing- they identified with their, THEIR people, even in the fallen state.

If we can believe the Bible, there will be another fallen state in the future of the Christian church, indeed a way worse one, that evokes a cry to "come out of her". And this one is supposedly going to produce coercion and bloodshed as well.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Using the 'no true Christian' fallacy to 'define them out' of Christianity is a dishonest move, *especially* when such consideration is not extended to the followers of other faiths, and *especially* when claims for Christianity's exclusive moral excellence are made.

Far better to say 'Yes, Christians have killed for their faith. We now believe they were misguided about what God wanted from them, but it happened and it's regrettable.'

Excellent!!

Thanks for the reality check!!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

The enemy of souls will come up with anything that turns seekers from the Truth.

Let me turn this around and see how this feels. This statement above is the same as me saying...

"The enemy of reason (LifeHiscost) will come up with anything that turns seekers from the Truth."

And then posting some uncommented quotes....

“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species."

"Gullibility and credulity are considered undesirable qualities in every department of human life -- except religion."

Christopher Hitchens.

Maybe if you could produce someone that was dead and rose from the dead to take care of His adherents (disciples) before joining with Him when He came back the second time to get us, we might be more disposed to see reason in your effort to replace Him. But then again that was what Lucifer tried to do and it didn't turn out very well then, so I doubt very much that you would receive any better response from those who don't accept disloyalty to their King as any viable plan for life.

God cares!

[Bravus]

^

|

How *not* to deal with those who have not experienced God.

[phkrause]

Quote:

Spell casting ??? Never heard that one before.

Who or what considers the Bible scriptures as spell casting ??

What one religion calls "spell-casting", another religion calls cursing or rebuking. There are definite curses and rebukes in the Bible. For example:

Quote:

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.(Rev. 22:18)

Sounds a lot like a curse to me.

I for one JoeMo don't see that at all.

[kailooa]

I do! The threat of God adding plagues to a person is definitely a curse to me.

[Live4Him]

Can anyone show me where I called anyone a troll? Never called him one, was asking if he was interested in a serious dialog or whether he was just trolling. Which I believe is a perfectly legitimate question seeing how most forums unfortunately have people that like to troll them usually.

[Bravus]

OK. He's not trolling.

Ready for that balanced response now.

[cardw]

Can anyone show me where I called anyone a troll? Never called him one, was asking if he was interested in a serious dialog or whether he was just trolling. Which I believe is a perfectly legitimate question seeing how most forums unfortunately have people that like to troll them usually.

Think about this question for a moment. If I was a troll, what are the chances I'm going to tell you?

A troll is not going to say, "Yes, I'm a troll, so don't have any further conversation with me." That would defeat the whole purpose for trolling.

In addition you can read a fair number of my posts and determine that for yourself.

[cardw]

Maybe if you could produce someone that was dead and rose from the dead to take care of His adherents (disciples) before joining with Him when He came back the second time to get us, we might be more disposed to see reason in your effort to replace Him. But then again that was what Lucifer tried to do and it didn't turn out very well then, so I doubt very much that you would receive any better response from those who don't accept disloyalty to their King as any viable plan for life.

God cares!

I'm on Lucifer's side since I can't produce a person who was raised from the dead and has disciples?

What?

I doubt you can produce someone who was raised from the dead and has disciples either. So I guess you're on Lucifer's side too.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I doubt you can produce someone who was raised from the dead and has disciples either. So I guess you're on Lucifer's side too.

Wrong! Although you sound like someone who believes only what you can see, taste, touch, smell or hear. That of course means Helen Keller would be a non-person to you, when I'm satisfied she spoke to the One Who raised the dead and gave Him all the glory for the gifts she received, expecting all the while there will be a day when sight will be of her most enjoyable experiences. For many others there is always this choice to look forward too.

"Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”"

Revelation 6:15-17 NLT

"The Lord is at the head of the column.

He leads them with a shout.

This is his mighty army,

and they follow his orders.

The day of the Lord is an awesome, terrible thing.

Who can possibly survive?

A Call to Repentance

That is why the Lord says,

“Turn to me now, while there is time.

Give me your hearts.

Come with fasting, weeping, and mourning."

Joel 2:10-12 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

they were exactly as Christian in every way as those who post here

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Matthew 7:19-21 NKJV Black addition added by by authors LHC

God cares!

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

the degree where it is posted back at those that do not follow the bible, with zero commentary other than the verses by the poster is a bit inane. It leaves one wondering if they really have any thought process going on or if they are just quoting by rote.

I have other thoughts. I just don't have any better or as good.

" His voice is heard, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love.” “With everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee.” How amazing is this love, that God condescends to remove all cause for doubt and questioning from human fears and weakness, and takes hold of the trembling hand reached up to him in faith; and he helps us to trust him by multiplied assurances and securities. He has made us a binding agreement upon condition of our obedience, and he comes to meet us in our own understanding of things. We think that a pledge or promise from our fellow men, if recorded, still needs a guarantee. Jesus has met all these peculiar fears, and he has confirmed his promise with an oath: “Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.” Hebrews 6:17, 18.

"What more could our Lord do to strengthen our faith in his promises? The clean heart, the right spirit, he requires of us, which is the gift of Jesus Christ, Christ worked to this end, and man co-operates with him. The divine and human efforts are united. The white robe, the crown of righteousness, an eternal weight of glory, is laid up for those who love God and keep his commandments. Then let all pride, all self-sufficiency be laid at the feet of Jesus. He is faithful that hath promised. If we approach him with a lowly, child-like trust, he will give us his grace and the treasures of eternal life as a free and everlasting gift."The Review and Herald April 5, 1887

God cares!

I don't even know where to begin with the irony of this post.

[cardw]

Quote:

I doubt you can produce someone who was raised from the dead and has disciples either. So I guess you're on Lucifer's side too.

Wrong!

That pretty much sums up the total message from all your posts.

[Stan]

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'? Perhaps even if they mock your experience?

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

I have met some folks who deal with those with sarcasm and ridicule... like that will help.

IMHO the more insecure, the higher the sarcasm, that goes both ways.

Perhaps others have different experiences.