Is this truthful or it is just an exaggeration?

[Guest]

I am 59 years old.

My "divinity degree" was obtained through my behavior toward God, when I was in my early twenties, of trying to ignore Him and not praying to Him during some sensitive situations in my life. I did so because, by previous experiences, I did not see Him doing what I asked Him in prayer. In those sensitive areas of my life where I decided to ignore God and do things according to "my best judgment" and the "best judgment" of those people that also had little regard for God laws, I obtained all the things that I could wish. Then I became to learn to consider myself as "one of the happiest men on earth." However, that happiness was not long lived. All of the sudden, hell began to break lose and I began to have a horrendous suffering in my own my life. I began to feel very angry against God and began to see Him almost as an enemy that needed to be avoided. However, my earthly father is a man who really has a life dedicated to God. When my pain was more intense, he began to have small groups of prayer, Bible study and worship songs in his house. He invited me in. Reluctantly, I decided to go. In one of those first meeting I attended, my bad attitude toward God began to change. Later on, I began to understand that if I kept praying even though I did not previously saw an answer from God, all the pain and suffering I had to go through would have never occurred. Even today, as a result of bad decisions of ignoring God over thirty years ago, I am still suffering the effects of those bad consequences. However, to my own surprise and to the surprise of those who closely know me, my suffering today is much less intense because even though I have not been completely liberated from the consequences of bad decisions that I made more than thirty years ago, I truly feel the protection of God and His angels taking care of me and taking care of those that I love.

FF

Thank you for that testimony. In some way, it reminds me of my own.

[Felix Florimon]

Well, well Felix you want to continue this diatribe.

Let me just say this: If I thought the God I worship would destroy a few in a lesser populated area than those in a more heavily populated area to teach others a lesson then I am not sure how much I would want to love or serve Him.

I am still digesting your statement that OKC happened because there were not people in small areas, outside of Okla City, praying for the gay rights people in the parade. They don't make enough anti acid tablets to make this palatable.

Anyone thinking as you have expressed yourself is taking God out of the biblical context taught by Moses, Jesus and the Apostles Paul, John, Peter and James. I do agree that Christians that have almost no knowledge about the experience between God and Israel should abstain from even considering any correlation about the absence of God's protection and an open rebellion against His laws. They cannot see the forest from the trees and they will end up in getting a very wrong concept about God. Regarding God's judgment or lack of judgment, it is better to use Jesus' methods of talking to them just in parables in order to allow them reach their own conclusions in a way that is not offensive to their own spiritual sensitivities.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

And for those people, do you pray for them and with them? And when the "unpredicted" moments happen, do you tell them that this is what God has given them because of their sinful lives? Do you take advantage of this opportunity to spread the word about sin's role to those who are watching their loved ones suffer?

There is big difference when a person talks to an audience of many people through a massive means of communication and when person talks to another person on a one to one basis. When a person talks to another person, on a one to one basis, one has the advantage of eye to eye contact and the advantage of perceiving "the body language" of the person you are talking to. Personally, I believe that words should only be "used as tools" in order to help other people change a kind of unhealthy behavior. I don't like to use words in order to make them feel more miserable than they really are. Now, when one talks to a general audience through a massive means of communication, we need to be aware that we are not alone. There is a real war between the Devil and God and when one says anything bad regarding the consequences of sin, the Devil has millions of demons assigned to twist the meaning of those words in the ears, eyes and minds of people in the audience in order to disconnect any correlation between sin and its horrendous consequences. Moreover, the work of the Devil is to make us see God as our enemy and not as our Creator, Redeemer and the One responsible to discipline us when we go astray from the path of goodness. This why many prophets were killed before Jesus walked on this earth and this is why we need to pray and to study our Bibles more in order to be better enabled to fight against sin and evil.

The people I work with have very limited knowledge of the word "sin." They are also unaware of God's role in disciplining His children as stated in Hebrews 12:5-11. Therefore, I am not able to use with them a "spiritual language" that they could really understand. I limit myself to use a "secular language" that I learned during my training on how to deal with those people. Instead of "sin," I use the words "unhealthy behavior" and the expression "a healthier lifestyle." By using with them such "secular language," I just limit myself in expressing the truth in a way they could understand and God has blessed me with a wider audience in which people that don't see me with eyes of evil where I discuss with them their need to change their lifestyle so they could be able to live a longer and happier life.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

Interesting thought. I read just the opposite in the Bible - like when God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah if there were only 10 righteous people to be found. It seems like the righteous could have saved the wicked - not the other way around. (Gen. 18:16-33). Didn't Jesus also say that the time of tribulation whould be cut short for the sale of the righteous? (Matt. 24:22 and Mark 13:20). I don't know about the god you serve, but the God I serve is a God of love, mercy and grace. It was the kindness of God that wooed me to salvation; not the fear of His wrath that scared me into it.

The problem is that how you and I define "righteous people" and how God defines "righteous people," according to the Bible, may not be the same. In God's eyes a really righteous person is a person that complies with Ezekiel 33:7-9 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved. In God's eyes a righteous person is an individual that Lord could really perceive as His servant.... "a servant that is not.. quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. A servant of Lord gently instructs opponents of the faith in a gentle way always hoping that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will" (2 Timothy 2:24-26). The reason that in Sodom and Gomorrah there not 10 people who were righteous is because the Sodomites would do against them what they promised to do to Lot when Lot begged them to avoid doing any harm to God's angels. When people begin to undermine and destroy the influence of those who are considered righteous individuals in God's eyes, they begin to seal their own destruction when those righteous people are not longer present or die out and there is not hope for repentance. When, how and where destruction will begin to take place is a matter of God's business. It is not our business to second guess why God's protection was withdrawn and destruction began in such place and no in that other place.

FF

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Naomi

Well, well Felix you want to continue this diatribe.

Let me just say this: If I thought the God I worship would destroy a few in a lesser populated area than those in a more heavily populated area to teach others a lesson then I am not sure how much I would want to love or serve Him.

I am still digesting your statement that OKC happened because there were not people in small areas, outside of Okla City, praying for the gay rights people in the parade. They don't make enough anti acid tablets to make this palatable.

Anyone thinking as you have expressed yourself is taking God out of the biblical context taught by Moses, Jesus and the Apostles Paul, John, Peter and James. I do agree that Christians that have almost no knowledge about the experience between God and Israel should abstain from even considering any correlation about the absence of God's protection and an open rebellion against His laws. They cannot see the forest from the trees and they will end up in getting a very wrong concept about God. Regarding God's judgment or lack of judgment, it is better to use Jesus' methods of talking to them just in parables in order to allow them reach their own conclusions in a way that is not offensive to their own spiritual sensitivities.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

I am going to have to disagree with you there, Felix.

If you wish to turn this in to a referendum on what God does to "teach people a lesson", then consider: Israel (and Judah) were God's by specific Covenant. No other nation on earth, before or since, has such a standing with God. Certainly not the US. Applying the Covenant conditions to the US is a non-starter. However, if you wish to go through Israel's history? That's okay with me.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Our conception of God mostly reflects upon us, not Him. Unless we have prophetic insights, we must be careful how we speak for God.

Maybe Job's words would give more clarification, when God's words are plain.

"For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me, And what I dreaded has happened to me."Job 3:25 NKJV

"...whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23 NASB

I'm satisfied the Word "whatever" defines the context.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Excuse my ignorance! < What is this purported to mean?

God cares!

[Felix Florimon]

If I understand what you are saying here correctly, then you are saying that its only non-Christians that are killing others? Because there has not been millions and possibly billions killed in the name of your God by those sincerely claiming to be putting into practice the teachings of Jesus. How are those killing any more just and right than if a non- Christian kills?

[phkrause]

However, if you feel that I am the one living in an illusory world of imagination when I believe that billions killed in the name of my God is something false, please tell me your historical or news media sources in which people truly believing Jesus' teachings go with weapons to kill non believers and begin to establish laws where everybody has to know revere the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament and attend church worship services on a regular daily or weekly basis.

I don't believe that I should defend myself how I present my God. That is not the issue. The issue is how God presents himself in the Bible when He says: As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people...? (Ezekiel 33:11).

Finally two statements that I can totally agreement with you on.

[M. T. Cross]

You guys are honestly saying that you don't believe that Christians, people sworn to the service of your God, have ever taken up weapons and killed those that did not believe and forced their religion, by their rules,and run nations by those rules?

Really?

[Naomi]

Excuse my ignorance! < What is this purported to mean?

God cares!

== oh really

Sorry if I was confusing the issue. It was in response to some really judgmental statements made by FF (Post #637924) concerning what myself and many others believe. Rather than continue attempting any type of reason on this subject my was merely a way of dismissing the subject. Or, IMHO just saying 'nuf said

[Felix Florimon]

You guys are honestly saying that you don't believe that Christians, people sworn to the service of your God, have ever taken up weapons and killed those that did not believe and forced their religion, by their rules,and run nations by those rules?

Really?

That is not the issue, the issue is either you or I is really living in a world of illusions. However, if you feel that I am the one living in an illusory world of imagination when I believe that billions killed in the name of my God is something false, please tell me your historical or news media sources in which people truly believing Jesus' teachings go with weapons to kill non believers (just because they are non believers in Jesus) and begin to establish laws where non believers would be killed or have no government protection because they do not believe in Jesus as our personal savior or where everybody has to know and revere the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament and attend church worship services on a regular daily or weekly basis. If you could come up with reliable historical or news media data showing that, then you would prove that it is I and those who agree me with me (just in this instance) live in a world of fantasy and illusions.

FF

[Naomi]

This appears to be an evolution of subjects

[M. T. Cross]

Mmm yes and no Naomi, just trying to clarify where his thinking is on an earlier comment, so I can progress from there.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

You guys are honestly saying that you don't believe that Christians, people sworn to the service of your God, have ever taken up weapons and killed those that did not believe and forced their religion, by their rules,and run nations by those rules?

Really?

That is not the issue, the issue is either you or I is really living in a world of illusions. However, if you feel that I am the one living in an illusory world of imagination when I believe that billions killed in the name of my God is something false, please tell me your historical or news media sources in which people truly believing Jesus' teachings go with weapons to kill non believers (just because they are non believers in Jesus) and begin to establish laws where non believers would be killed or have no government protection because they do not believe in Jesus as our personal savior or where everybody has to know and revere the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament and attend church worship services on a regular daily or weekly basis. If you could come up with reliable historical or news media data showing that, then you would prove that it is I and those who agree me with me (just in this instance) live in a world of fantasy and illusions.

FF

Have you heard of the Crusades? The Inquisitions?

[Felix Florimon]

Felix, I do research for the consultant to the US Federal government (as well as other countries) on natural disasters, including earthquakes, floods, weather phenomena such as tornados and hurricanes, sinkholes, underground caves, and more. He does not agree with your statement. While he is very much a Christian and believer in God, he also believes (as do I) that God gave humans the ability to research, reason, and study these natural phenomena....because that is what they *are* - natural. Yes, God is always in control, but natural sciences follow rules, as set in place by God.

Tornados, hurricanes, and floods generally happen in regions where the weather conditions are conducive for such. Earthquakes happen where there are fault lines in the vicinity. Sinkholes happen due to underground geologic factors. Dams and levees are breached, and bridges collapse, due to flooding and/or inadequate architectural design or other human error.

I'm trying very hard to be respectful of your opinion, but I can't even come close to agreeing with it.

Post #636821

Of course that your are trying very hard to be respectful of my opinion and that you can't come close to agreeing with this. First, I need to fully acknowledge that you are 100% right when you wrote that natural sciences follow rules, as set in place by God. This is something that any good student of science would agree with. He/she would agree that this is a truth that is "self evident" (with the exception that atheists and militant secularists would strongly object the mention of the word "God" in anything that is related to the existence and behavior of the natural world).

Now, if you truly wish to be an objective and an independent observer, just based on the data that you have acquired regarding tornadoes, hurricanes and floods, it will be impossible for you, no matter how hard you try of even coming close to the points I have tried to get across. This is because you only have one set of scientific data.

However, if you send someone to collect data regarding the set of beliefs, customs and practices of people suffering the greatest from the effects of tornadoes, hurricanes and floods then you would acquire a truthful scientific authority to say that I am wrong and misguided when I associate "lack of God's protection" on those who openly disregard laws of human to human behavior or human to God behavior that was advocated by our Lord Jesus Christ when He walked on earth. You could truly disagree with my points when you don't see any objective evidence (or evidence brought forward by different independent observers) giving real weight to my points. However, without bringing in the data collected by independent observers showing a lack of association in defying the moral of human to human behavior advocated by the Lord Jesus and the effects of tornadoes, hurricanes and floods on people your opinion just become an opinion. Without such data neither you or I have any objective grounds to feel that one or the other has a false opinion. We just are able to say that we disagree with each other.

FF

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Have you heard of the Crusades? The Inquisitions?

Both movements were a result of believing false doctrine, whatever their profession.

"...but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God."

John 16:2 NASB

God cares!

[Felix Florimon]

Have you heard of the Crusades? The Inquisitions?

Of course, the Great Controversy by EGW talks extensively about the Inquisition and other secular historians talk a great deal about the Crusades and the Inquisition. Now, you need to do what I have requested you to do. Please tell me of any historian showing that the purpose of the Crusades and the Inquisition was to specifically look for those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer in order to kill them and that the Crusades or Inquisitions were created in order to promote the study of the Bible, a belief that Jesus came down to die for our sins and regular church attendance to study the word of God, through the Bible and teach Jesus teachings as they are taught in the New Testament.

FF

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

Have you heard of the Crusades? The Inquisitions?

Of course, the Great Controversy by EGW talks extensively about the Inquisition and other secular historians talk a great deal about the Crusades and the Inquisition. Now, you need to do what I have requested you to do. Please tell me of any historian showing that the purpose of the Crusades and the Inquisition was to specifically look for those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer in order to kill them and that the Crusades or Inquisitions were created in order to promote the study of the Bible, a belief that Jesus came down to die for our sins and regular church attendance to study the word of God, through the Bible and teach Jesus teachings as they are taught in the New Testament.

FF

Wow, Felix what was their purpose then? Of course it was political as well, most things associated with Christianity are.

Google it for 5 minutes. Read just a weeee little bit. The Inquisition in particular was to wipe out non Christian beliefs. If that meant death to the people that practiced it then so be it. The Christianization of Europe was a blood bath, follow our god and our bible or die.

Now you and others can sit around and say that this was all political maneuvering, you can say it was based on false doctrine. Thing is, same God, same Bible, same "wrath".

I distinctly see you following that same kind of God. Your comment on how non Christians are a threat to civilization and the future of man-kind, your view that your god is killing people because of the sins of others, its the same thinking as those that thought it was a great idea to butcher anyone that would not follow the same "doctrine" as them. Its sick.

You know, I have spent half my life hearing about how in the final days the "perfect" Christians will be oppressed and persecuted. Oddly enough it seems that its the same tactic that Christians like yourself seem to employ.

I keep hearing about this almighty creator that gave free will, then people like yourself go on about how he punishes people for actually using it.

Really, in the end I see two Gods presented here, and let me tell you, the one that you present is a sick, petty, twisted and evil being. I have read and studied the bible a great deal, and let me tell you, not once did I ever get the impression of Jesus having this kind of diseased way of thinking. He may not have been as peacefull as some would like to believe but I don't see any suggestion that he would use his godly powers to commit genocide.

[Naomi]

Mmm yes and no Naomi, just trying to clarify where his thinking is on an earlier comment, so I can progress from there.

Yes, my friend, I understand where you are coming from and sadly I understanding from whence he comes.

[cricket]

However, if you send someone to collect data regarding the set of beliefs, customs and practices of people suffering the greatest from the effects of tornadoes, hurricanes and floods then you would acquire a truthful scientific authority to say that I am wrong and misguided when I associate "lack of God's protection" on those who openly disregard laws of human to human behavior or human to God behavior that was advocated by our Lord Jesus Christ when He walked on earth. You could truly disagree with my points when you don't see any objective evidence (or evidence brought forward by different independent observers) giving real weight to my points. However, without bringing in the data collected by independent observers showing a lack of association in defying the moral of human to human behavior advocated by the Lord Jesus and the effects of tornadoes, hurricanes and floods on people your opinion just become an opinion. Without such data neither you or I have any objective grounds to feel that one or the other has a false opinion. We just are able to say that we disagree with each other.

Does it have to be data from all the people or will only one family's data suffice? Because you see, I know of a few of the families who have lost everything, and I'll be happy to go and interview that 6 year old little girl who lost her 11 year old cousin, her dog, and her house and I'll ask her if she loves God or not.

[Felix Florimon]

Wow, Felix what was their purpose then? Of course it was political as well, most things associated with Christianity are.

[Felix Florimon]

Yes, my friend, I understand where you are coming from and sadly I understanding from whence he comes.

I am not able to read your mind regarding where you think I am coming from. However, the word "sadly" tells me that you don't know that I am coming from a core set of beliefs that we should truly advocate to have an unrestricted freedom to take Jesus' message to all the ends of the earth, all creation, make disciples in all nations as stated in Acts 1:7; Mark 16:15 and Matthew 28:19, and that we should have an unrestricted freedom to "preach the word... in season and out of season, to correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction (2 Timothy 4:2) to non believers in Jesus Christ under the guidance of God's Holy Spirit.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

Does it have to be data from all the people or will only one family's data suffice? Because you see, I know of a few of the families who have lost everything, and I'll be happy to go and interview that 6 year old little girl who lost her 11 year old cousin, her dog, and her house and I'll ask her if she loves God or not.

In order to be truly accepted in a truthful academic field of research, the data has to come from all the people and through an agreeable timeline. This is why the field of medicine has been so successful in coming up with new medications treating AIDS, diabetes, heart disease, leukemia, etc. This is because the data is collected from thousands of people, from many different places and through a lengthy time span. Even more, we greatly believe in what is called double blind, placebo, controlled study where one follows a specific set of procedures to ensure that the results obtained are dependable and free from subjective bias. In this instance, both the patients and the health care worker who administer the drug may be kept in the dark about the dosage being applied in each case. Likewise, in this case for the data to be valid, it has to be evaluated by people who don't have an opinion in favor or against what I have stated to believe to be truthful. This is because until all the data is in, my own personal opinions is as good as anybody's opinion. When I was in training, my favorite science lecturer used to say: "We only trust in God; everybody else should bring in the data."

FF