What Gospel Do You Believe & Preach?

[Samie]

When a Christian preacher tells people unless one believes and accepts the Lord Jesus as his personal savior he cannot be part of His body, the preacher is in fact telling non-Christians they are not part of the body of Christ. And if not part of His body, what then?

Our Savior says, separate from him man can do NOTHING:

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NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

So if man can do NOTHING while separate from Christ, how can he do the good acts of believing and accepting the Lord?

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NAS Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

If a person CAN believe and accept the Lord, isn't that proof he is already part of the body of Christ?

[JoeMo]

Samie, those are some tough questions.

Look at Joel 2:28 -30 and and Acts 2:17-19:

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And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens

and on the earth

I think even non-believers at that time will (probably now can) hear the voice of the Spirit; but they don't recognize it as such. If they listen and heed, the Spirit will lead them to Christ; and they are every bit as much the body of Christ as we are.

For that matter, I think the Holy Spirit talks to believers as well; but most of us don't recognize it as such, either. We think it's just part of the random self-talk that goes on constantly in our brains. We need to learn how to distinguish between God speaking to us, us speaking to ourselves, and the evil one speaking to us. Only God's voice brings us light.

[Samie]

The paradox is that whereas Christ had plainly declared that while SEPARATE from Him man can do NOTHING, preachers are in effect saying that while still SEPARATE from Christ, man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him: man can believe and accept Jesus, and bingo, they become part of His body.

And to think that these preachers believe in all honesty that they are bringing the gospel Christ wanted preached to all the world before He comes again. But how can it be the gospel that our Lord wanted preached when it goes directly opposite to what He Himself had proclaimed?:

Christ: Separate from Me, man can do NOTHING.

Preacher: While still separate from Christ, man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him.

Now, please don't take me wrong. I am not in anyway blaming anyone. This poor brother is just REMINDING all concerned that this is high time to reconsider the brand of gospel we bring to the world.

[Gregory Matthews]

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. . . preachers are in effect saying that while still SEPARATE from Christ, man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him: man can believe and accept Jesus, and bingo, they become part of His body.

It is the Holy Spirit who works on the individual and brings them into a relationship with Christ.

The preachers may play a part, but it is a small part.

[Samie]

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. . . preachers are in effect saying that while still SEPARATE from Christ, man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him: man can believe and accept Jesus, and bingo, they become part of His body.

It is the Holy Spirit who works on the individual and brings them into a relationship with Christ.

The preachers may play a part, but it is a small part.

[Gregory Matthews]

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And who does the Holy Spirit lead? Scriptures say, the sons of God:

Yes, those who are led by the HS are Sons of God.

But take a look at the work of the Holy Spirit, as presented in John 16:

1) Verses 8 - 10: The work of the HS is to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Well, Scripture does nto present the world as being Sons of God.

Scripture does not present the world as following God.

It is clear here that the Holy Spirit works on people who are not following God and are not being led by the Holy Spirit.

2) It is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring people to Christ.

3) See verses 12 ff: There is more here about the HS teaching.

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So, even before the preacher does his job of preaching, the Holy Spirit is already at work with people who ALREADY are sons of God.

O.K. But, the HS is also at work for people who are not led by the HS and in that sense are not Sons of God.

NOTE: There is a sense in which every person, as a creation of God, is a son or daughter of God. But, that is a different issue.

[Samie]

The Holy Spirit was sent to earth AFTER our Savior has ALREADY drawn ALL MEN to Himself on the cross. The Lord said that on the cross, He will draw all men to Himself:

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KJV John 12:

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The apostle Paul explains that our Lord did the drawing of ALL MEN unto Himself on the cross, by fashioning them into His body with the intent of RECONCILING both Jews & Gentiles to God:

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NKJ Ephesians 2:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands --

12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

That death on the cross RECONCILED us all to God:

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NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

As a result, we ALL are NOW members of the household or family of God:

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NKJ Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God

Based on the above Scriptures, and many others more, it would appear that we are telling people who ALREADY are in the family of God, HOW TO BE IN that family. We cannot seem to believe that Christ HAS ALREADY DONE the drawing of ALL MEN to Himself on the cross. We seem to INSIST that unless a person FIRST does his own share of the work - by first believing and accepting the Lord - he cannot be part of His Body, a work SOLELY done by God through Christ, but which we like to have a part in.

Shouldn't we instead tell people that we already are part of His Body and focus on how we are to live NOW that we are part of that Body, and overcome evil with good, because only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life? Shouldn't this be the brand of gospel we NEED to preach and be counted AMONG those proclaiming the everlasting gospel that our Lord wanted preached to all the world before He comes again?

[Samie]

The clarion call had just been sounded. May all concerned accordingly respond.

[JoeMo]

You lost me with the clarion call thing...???

[Samie]

You lost me with the clarion call thing...???

How so, brother? Can you please explain further?

[Samie]

At a time when people believed that the sun revolves around the earth, Copernicus was chided because he taught it is the earth that revolves around the sun.

At this time when the brand of gospel being preached tells people to first believe BEFORE they can be part of the body of Christ, anyone who tells people that they are already attached to Christ that's why they can believe will most probably suffer the same experience that Copernicus had.

But the time came when people realized that Copernicus was right. The time is not far-fetched when people will realize the gospel truth in this thread.

[JoeMo]

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How so, brother? Can you please explain further?

I read your post again; and I think I understand what you are saying. I'm not sure I agree with your assertion 100%; but I do agree with the reconciliation part. I also believe we that, although we all have (or will eventually have) an opportunity to be members of the family of God or the body of Christ, we have a choice on whether or not to seize that opportunity. If we consciously make an informed choice to reject that opportunity, I kinda wonder whether we're still part of the family.

[Samie]

John 15:10.......... He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit

The whole sense of this phase indicates that abiding in Christ is not something you are born into but something based on choice. If you were born abiding in Christ then you would be always bringing forth much fruit and would not have to be grafted in.

You are given free choice and it is the Lord pursuing you, not living in you, who knocks on the door of your heart asking to come in.

...

That brings us to square one. If while apart from Christ we can do the good act of CHOOSING to abide in Christ, then the statement of the Lord in John 15:5 does not hold true, as pointed out in the opening post.

[Gregory Matthews]

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If you were born abiding in Christ then you would be always bringing forth much fruit and would not have to be grafted in.

Oh?

You seem not to have had much experience with trees.

A bit over a year ago, we planted a fig tree on our property. It bore some fruit that 1st summer and grew to a nice height.

Yesterday we dug it up, threw it away, and replaced it with another tree. It was alive. But, it had been damaged by the winter to the extent that it was not going to grow and produce fruit.

By the way, Check out Mark 11:12-14. That passage tells the story of a plant born a fig tree, raised as a fig tree, that grew, flourished and produced many leaves. But, it did not produce fruit.

[joeb]

Gregory,

Do you really believe you are forgiven your sins before you ask for forgiveness? If so, why isn't everyone "saved" and justified before God right now as all sinners are forgiven before they ask for forgiveness? That strongly implies no need for repentance before forgiveness and salvation.

[Gregory Matthews]

Valid question. I will respond later when I have more time, today.

[LifeHiscost]

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If a person CAN believe and accept the Lord, isn't that proof he is already part of the body of Christ?

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.John 3:3 KJV

Jesus/God saves!

[JoeMo]

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Do you really believe you are forgiven your sins before you ask for forgiveness?

Answer:

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No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”(Hebrews 8: 11-12)

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If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.(1John 1:9)

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Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live! (Ezekiel 18:30-31)

I see nothing in any of these verses that require us to ask forgiveness (there may be some that do tell us to ask forgiveness; but I couldn't think of any off-hand).. We are to confess and repent; and God will remember our sins no more. All the forgiveness for sin happened at the cross.

With that said, asking forgiveness certainly can't hurt...

[joeb]

Hey JoeMo,

I don't see how you can quote 1John 1:9 in support of the position you took here. The text begins with the conditional "if". That means confessing must take place before the rest of the actions can take place. Now to confess means to acknowledge or admit something. Does that mean I can go to God and admit I sinned but say "so what" to God, or must I admit I sinned with an atitude of repentance, of which asking for forgiveness is part and parcel thereof, before John says God will be faithful and just to forgive me?

From the position you're taking it seems you don't think it matters what attitude I take along with my admission that I sinned.

[JoeMo]

Hi joeb,

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From the position you're taking it seems you don't think it matters what attitude I take along with my admission that I sinned.

I don't mean to give that impression. The last part of 1 John 1:9 talks about Jesus cleansing us from all unrighteousness. To me that means giving us the power to repent (literally "turn around" or "turn away from" - not "ask forgiveness"). If I stop doing what offends you, don't my actions speak louder than my words "I'm sorry for ..."?

I'm not disagreeing with you here. You know I respect your opinions.

[LifeHiscost]

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We are to confess and repent; and God will remember our sins no more. All the forgiveness for sin happened at the cross.

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."Matthew 18:20-22 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Joeb asked:

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Gregory,

Do you really believe you are forgiven your sins before you ask for forgiveness? If so, why isn't everyone "saved" and justified before God right now as all sinners are forgiven before they ask for forgiveness? That strongly implies no need for repentance before forgiveness and salvation.

Well, let us look at Scripture:

1) Romans 5:12; Through the action of one person [Adam] sin and death came into the world. This sin and death spread to every person. see also, Romans 5: 14.

2) Romans 5:18; In the same sense that the action of one person brought sin and death to every person in the world, so also the action of one person [Christ] brought justification to all persons.

This is the central message of the gospel: The act of Christ on then cross restored the broken relationship between humanity (all of it) and God. Every person was affected by Christ's death on the cross.

It is over. It is finished. God has won the battle. No one (not one) needs worry about getting right with God. No one needs to wonder if they are worthy--united with Christ in His death on the cross, they are worthy.

No one need to wonder about their salvation.

The sins of humanity have been covered by the blood of Christ. No one is to wicked to be excluded. Forgiveness is here and now.

The battle has been won

To the idea that forgiveness only comes with requesting it: No human has a full sense of their sin. So, no human can possibly ask forgiveness for every sin.

God, on the cross took care of it all. Every sin. Every wicked person. No exceptions. The battle has been won.

Joeb also said:

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That strongly implies no need for repentance before forgiveness and salvation.

Only in our human thought. Again, let us look at Scripture:

1) Romans 5:9; We are justified now. Salvation from the wrath which is to come is later. It is not in the present.

Many people use the term "salvation" in connection with the forgiveness of sin and what Romans is calling justification.

But, note carefully that in this verse. the justification is in the present and salvation from wrath is later.

The central issue that we as humans face today is that of choice. Where (and with whom) do we chose to spend eternity. Do we chose to spend it in the eternal life that God has prepared for us? Or do we chose to spend our remaining days outside of that eternal life.

NOTE: I have a sermon that I sometimes preach entitled: THE ADVANTAGE OF GOING TO HELL. The idea of that is that God does not force anyone. We make a choice and some of us chose to spend our eternal life outside of God--which when God accepts our choice is short lived.

2) Romans 1:18 ff; The message of this passage is that God accepts the choice that we make. Some of us will chose a life that is 180 degrees opposite from the life that God has for us. There will be no murder, adultery, theft, etc. Not in Gods world. Those who chose to live in such a world will not be force to live with God.

The consequence of an eternal separation from God is eternal death as it is only in Christ that we live today.

Yes, in making the choice to spend eternity with God we will repent of our known sins. That repentance will include a desire to live outside of those sins in a place where such sin does not exist.

[LifeHiscost]

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No one is to wicked to be excluded.

"Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."Ephesians 4:28-32 NKJV

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”"Acts 5:30-32 NKJV

"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. "1 John 2:1-3 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

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“Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."Matthew 18:20-22 NKJV

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And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. (Matt. 6:12)

Good thing to remember. If I want to be forgiven much, I need to forgive much. God knows how much forgiveness I need - Jesus knew it while hanging on the cross.

Father God, Help me to forgive others as freely as You have forgiven me!

[JoeMo]

Gregory,

That was an absolutely anointed post! You are so blessed with a gift of melding God's word with the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking in your heart. Eloquence is also one of your gifts. Thank you (and thank God) for that!