What Gospel Do You Believe & Preach?

[Gregory Matthews]

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Considering these texts, whether in or out of context, I feel safer at any particular time asking God for repentance rather than making effort to prove I don't need it.

As also, since I'm living in the age of the church of Laodicea, it is not a misplaced request.

The Bible is clear: All humans need to repent.

If you attempt to prove you do not need to repent, you do not understand the basics of Scripture.

If you think that I have been teaching that we do not need to repent, you have not understood what I have said.

[Samie]

Simply put, repentance is a 180-degree-turn from sin. It is the essence of overcoming.

[Samie]

IF, unless confessed and repented of, a man has BUT one sin that remains unforgiven, then:

#1. He is separate from God (Isa 59:2).

#2. He cannot do ANYTHING good (Jer 13:23).

#3. He is spiritually DEAD (Eph 2:1).

From #1, separate from God, he is also separate from Christ Who is one with God. And separate from Him, our Lord said we can do NOTHING (John 15:4,5). So how can he confess and repent?

From #2, confession and repentance are OBVIOUSLY good acts. So how can he do these good acts?

From #3, as the physically dead cannot do anything physical, in like manner, the spiritually dead cannot do anything spiritual, like confessing and repenting.

Therefore, IF unless confessed and repented of, a man has BUT one sin that remains unforgiven, then he is hopeless.

BUT, thank God Who, on the cross through Christ, has forgiven us all our sins (Col 2:13)! We all have hope (1 Pet 1:3). And it takes faith to believe this, for the just shall live by faith (Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17; Gal 3:11; Heb 10:38). This is part of the pure gospel, the everlasting gospel Christ wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14; Rev 14:6).

[JoeMo]

I've always wondered about the tension in the Bible between salvation by perfectly keeping the Law and salvation solely by faith in the grace and power of God. Is it possible that God gives us the Law as a vision of what holiness is? Then, we try to meet those requirements; and realize they are an impossible standard to realize without supernatural help.

At this point, people take divergent paths. Some people totally give up on YHVH; some people continue trying to be "good enough" to maybe meet the minimum standards (never knowing for sure if they have); and some people realize the futility of achieving the level of righteousness required by the Law by their own strength of will, and throw themselves at the feet of Jesus trusting that He who began a good work in them will be faithful to complete it.

The perceived tension in scripture may be just an explanation of the consequences of following each of these paths. Give up on God; you're probably lost. Keep trying to achieve spiritual perfection under your own power before coming to Jesus, and you'll never be "good enough". Put your faith and trust in Jesus to both save you and deliver you from unrighteousness (i.e., give you both forgiveness and the will/power to repent and overcome), your salvation is guaranteed.

It's not a cakewalk. maintaining that faith and trust can be a challenge; especially if one is a "recovering legalist".

[Gregory Matthews]

One sin:

Is Samie on to something?

Could one take what Samie posted and take it to the point of saying that there is only one basic sin?

If so, what would that sin be?

I will suggest that if one were to posit that there is only one basic sin, that sin is: Rebellion.

[JoeMo]

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I will suggest that if one were to posit that there is only one basic sin, that sin is: Rebellion.

[JoeMo]

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Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out

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Except the sinner repent, he cannot be forgiven

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When sin has been repented of, confessed, and forsaken, then pardon is written against the sinner's name

All of these statements are true. They talk about REPENTANCE, which is literally the ACTION of turning around or turning away. An APOLOGY is merely WORDS. Action (repentance) speaks louder than words (begging forgiveness).

Most everything Samie and Gregory are saying IMO is in context.

We would not even feel or need to repent (or optionally, ask for forgiveness) were we not wooed by the Holy Spirit to do so. It's ALL about what God does for us; and NOTHING (except belief and cooperation)to do with us. We are human BEINGS; not human DOINGS. So I'm just gonna rest in Christ and try to hear His voice and feel His power and just enjoy BEING with Him rather than focusing on self and wallowing in self-pity and guilt cuz I'm incapable of DOING it alone. However, in Christ all things are possible.

[Samie]

....

Both you and Samie have taken Bible quotes in isolation to make your case, but in doing so you force the Bible to contradict itself as witnessed by the Bible verses I listed in my previous post.

Without a faith that leads to repentance Christ's blood is of no avail to the sinner. This is Bible truth pure and simple.

[Gregory Matthews]

Jackson said:

Quote:

Gregory, I gave 4 different quotes from the SOP. IT is not practical to include long passages as it would be too cumbersome. Anyone who is familiar with the writings of Mrs. White knows that she agrees with Scripture and is adamant that there is no forgiveness without repentance,

The quote you cited is not out of context. She made a definitive statement with no qualifiers; "

The above is simply crazy.

1) You say that it is not practical to include long quotes. I do not recall that stopping you in the past. Further, I did not post a long quote. I included one very important sentence that you did not include. If you had included that one sentence your quote would have been a short quote.

If you seriously believe that you did not quote her out of context, you simply do not understand what it means to quote in context.

Your statement that she made a definitive statement without qualifiers is false. The qualifier was the sentence that I included which you had left out. That one statement gave us her context and amounted to a qualifier.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I will suggest that if one were to posit that there is only one basic sin, that sin is: Rebellion.

re·bel·lion

riˈbelyən/

noun

noun: rebellion; plural noun: rebellions

an act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler.

"the authorities put down a rebellion by landless colonials"

synonyms: uprising, revolt, insurrection, mutiny, revolution, insurgence, insurgency; More

rioting, riot, disorder, unrest

"troops suppressed the rebellion"

the action or process of resisting authority, control, or convention.

"an act of teenage rebellion"

synonyms: defiance, disobedience, rebelliousness, insubordination, subversion, subversiveness, resistance

"an act of rebellion"

Given the harshness of the description of rebellion, it would appear to me that the subtleness of satan is revealed, violent in Eve only since it was the first time a human had ever failed to follow Gods' express command. The reaction of Adam could perhaps be more apt to reflect rebellion since he was not deceived but chose nevertheless to act contrary to Gods' express command.

I would suggest that original and subsequent sins are based on disbelief of Gods' injunctions needing to be followed to the letter, which can make the most subtle nuance or harshest rejection of the Word, knowingly contrary to what is Gods' command and culminating in or leading to unbelief would be classified as the most basic sin.

For what it's worth.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

This morning we read Romans 5, the whole chapter from the NASB, and I honestly wouldn't be able to explain it any better or even as well.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."Acts 4:12 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Samie]

...

Both you and Samie have taken Bible quotes in isolation to make your case, but in doing so you force the Bible to contradict itself as witnessed by the Bible verses I listed in my previous post.

Without a faith that leads to repentance Christ's blood is of no avail to the sinner. This is Bible truth pure and simple.

[Samie]

Hi Jackson;

All the Scriptural references you provided to back up your position had been addressed. Your use of Sister White's statements will now be taken up:

Unless of his own accord man consents to renounce his sinful practises, Christ can not take away his sin. Man must heartily co-operate with God, willingly obeying His laws, showing that he appreciates the great gift of grace. Feeling his dependence upon God, having faith in Christ as his personal Saviour, expecting efficiency and success only as he keeps the Lord ever before him,--it is thus that man complies with the injunction, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." {ST, September 25, 1901 par. 2}

Sins not repented of are sins not forgiven. Those who think themselves forgiven for sins of which they have never felt the sinfulness and over which they have never felt contrition of soul, only deceive themselves. . . . Our strength lies in our conscious weakness. . . . In self-distrust we cry to God for help, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Casting away all confidence in the arm of flesh, we cling with firm grasp to Jesus. . . . {OHC 82.5}

When sin has been repented of, confessed, and forsaken, then pardon is written against the sinner's name; but his sins are not blotted out until after the investigative judgment. No finite being can tell how his case stands in the sight of Him whose eyes are like a flame of fire, who says: "I know thy works. . . .ST 5/16/95

The first step toward salvation is to respond to the drawing of the love of Christ. God sends message after message to men, entreating them to repentance, that He may forgive, and write pardon against their names. Shall there be no repentance? Shall his appeals be unheeded, his overtures of mercy ignored, and his love utterly rejected? O, then man will cut himself off from the medium through which he may gain life eternal. By the manifestation of his love, by the entreaties of his Spirit, God woos men to repentance; for repentance is the gift of God and whom He pardons He first makes penitent. The sweetest joy comes to man through his sincere repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and through faith in Christ as the sinner's Redeemer and Advocate. ...... {BEcho, March 15, 1893 par. 4}

Except the sinner repent, he cannot be forgiven; but the question to be decided is as to whether repentance is the work of the sinner or the gift of Christ. Must the sinner wait until he is filled with remorse for his sin before he can come to Christ? The very first step to Christ is taken through the drawing of the Spirit of God; as man responds to this drawing, he advances toward Christ in order that he may repent. {1SM 390.1}

Christ pardons none but the penitent, but whom He pardons He first makes penitent. The provision made is complete, and the eternal righteousness of Christ is placed to the account of every believing soul. The costly, spotless robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has been provided for the repenting, believing sinner, and everyone may say: “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness” (Isaiah 61:10).—Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 393, 394.

Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned, and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God.{GC88 486.2} {GC 1911 486.2}{FLB 211.4}

[Gregory Matthews]

Samie: Good response.

[JoeMo]

Samie and Gregory,

I bow to your prowess as avid students of scripture. There is no way I could have exposited the Truth in a more positive manner!

One parable from the OT I want to bring up as an example of the completeness of Christ's sacrifice; and the fact that it was all Him:

When Israelites were making atonement for sin, they brought a sacrifice (lamb or bullock) to the temple. What did the priests examine to determine whether or not the sacrifice was acceptable? The sinner? NO - it was the sacrifice! If the sacrifice was acceptable, the sin was forgiven (at least in a ceremonial sense).

So it is with our Lord and Savior Jesus. When we confess our sins (I'm talking in general - not individually) and present our "sacrifice (the blood of Jesus), the Father deems it acceptable (He has already deemed it acceptable); and our sins are forgiven (since God is transcendent of time, they are already forgiven).

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1)

"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."( 1 John 4:10)

[Gregory Matthews]

Excellent point.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

she believed we were all forgiven and cleansed from sin when our Savior died. She stood by these statements until her death.

And I believe those statements. However those who do not believe the Word will not be able to access the efficacy of the blood that was shed in order that the promises could be made.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."Acts 4:12 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

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However those who do not believe the Word will not be able to access the efficacy of the blood that was shed in order that the promises could be made.

Conversely, those who have never been exposed to the Word will have never had to choose whether or not to reject the Christ and His promises. Are the covered by the Blood of the Lamb? I think they might be.

[LifeHiscost]

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However those who do not believe the Word will not be able to access the efficacy of the blood that was shed in order that the promises could be made.

Conversely, those who have never been exposed to the Word will have never had to choose whether or not to reject the Christ and His promises. Are the covered by the Blood of the Lamb? I think they might be.

I think the underlined above explains those that will be lost to the Kingdom. It might be put into even better perspective if stated "those who continue to refuse to believe the Word".

God loves all human kind as we have all been made in the image of God. As the Father of all His creation, none are going to lose a gift of God as a result Gods' best effort failing to give them adequate means to receive the gift.

A third of the angels lost their rightful place in the cosmos, not as a result of not knowing how to maintain their rightful status, but as a result of accepting the deceptions of a liar bent on establishing his own kingdom, to replace the Kingdom of the Creator.

Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.2 Thess 2:2-4 NLT

God cares! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

God created us to be His family. His will will be done, whether through the obedience of His faithful or eventually by exercise if His power and grace - no matter how unpleasant it may be for those in active rebellion to His will at that time. He is not in any way dependent upon humanity for His will to be done - it will be done. God will have a family; and it is us - maybe not all of us; but it is us.

[JoeMo]

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The Adventist Church was raised up to give the 3 angels' messages to the world. It is a judgment hour message (Rev 14:7)

Not just SDA' but all Christianity.

This site might be called "ClubAdventist"; but their are people of all beliefs here, including pagans and atheists. How much sway do you think giving all EGW quotes is gonna have with them?

Do you honestly think that - outside of believing that Jesus is who He says He is and did what He said he did; and cooperating with His Spirit and grace - you can do anything to better assure your salvation? Your works are a witness to the world that you have been changed; but they have nothing to do with your access to the free gift of eternal life. That is yours for believing and trusting in Jesus. He will change you. You can't change yourself. Any forgiveness we have or any power we have to overcome comes from Jesus and His Spirit. Without Him, we can do nothing good.

[LifeHiscost]

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Samie]

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First, Samie erroneously said Mrs. White, after about 1900, changed her views on the atonement and what was accomplished at the cross and came over to Samie's way of thinking. The Sop quotes i offered, with dates well after 1900, showed his maligning statements to be false.

...

[Gregory Matthews]

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It is obvious from your posts that you have doubted or even rejected her writings. That is your decision, If you find any of my statements violating scripture, then I will be happy to be corrected, but please do not attempt to hinder me from posting SOP quotes because you personally find them "inappropriate"

1) It is judgmental and inappropriate on your part to tell another that he either doubts or has rejected EGW. You may be very wrong. You are not the standard and simply because one does not agree with you does snot mean that he rejects EGW.

2) It is part of the discussion here for one to tell another that they have been inappropriate in their use of EGW.

You are not the standard. Your understanding of EGW is not the standard. It is appropriate for someone to tell you that you have been inappropriate in your use of EGW and to tell you why.

[JoeMo]

Hey jackson,

I meant no offense by anything I posted. I apologize for coming across that way. I don't reject Mrs. White; but neither do I believe that she is infallible. Nor am I comfortable with forcing scripture to fit her writings in places where (as far as I can understand) her writings do not conform with God's Word.

There is a difference between unity and uniformity. When we are all united in our commitment to Jesus and look forward to (and promote) His coming, we are united in our vision. That doesn't mean we all must believe and act the exact same way or have "uniformity". God has a different path for each of us. As long as we all end up in a trusting and obedient relationship with Him, it's all good.

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Any that can explain the 70 weeks, 2300 days, time, times and a half a time? Any that can tell you who received the deadly wound that is being heaed?

Yes; there are. Not the same way SDA's explain it; but ways that (from my feeble understanding) have just as credible a scriptural backing as what SDA's believe. I refuse to put on blinders and not at least consider alternatives to what the denomination (or the culture of the denomination) holds "sacred".

The lateness and sheer exhaustion prevent me from going into details. Gregory and Samie are doing an excellent job of it. I am in agreement with just about everything they have posted here.