What Gospel Do You Believe & Preach?

[Samie]

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First, Samie erroneously said Mrs. White, after about 1900, changed her views on the atonement and what was accomplished at the cross and came over to Samie's way of thinking. The Sop quotes i offered, with dates well after 1900, showed his maligning statements to be false.

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Hi jackson;

Just in case you may have missed it, you may address my response here in this post.

I was also asking you to show in her writings after 1900 where she wrote that the atonement made on the cross was not perfect & complete.

[Gregory Matthews]

JoMo said:

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. I don't reject Mrs. White; but neither do I believe that she is infallible.

Ellen White said:

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In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning.--Letter 10, 1895, 1SM page 37.

[Samie]

Hi jackson;

From your response, it appears you were not able to find any statement by Sister White after 1900 where she said the Atonement made on the cross was NOT complete and perfect.

The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement. {PP 357.5} 1890

Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming. {GC 422.1} b]1911

[Gregory Matthews]

Jackson said:

Quote:

The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement. {PP 357.5} 1890

Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming. {GC 422.1} b]1911

In the English language, as is common with most languages, a word may be defined in multiple ways and not just one way.

Jackson's citation above shows that EGW used the word "atonement" in two different ways.

In the first citation, Jackson shows that EGW used the word "atonement" in the same manner as the Hebrew people used it in reference to The Day of atonement.

In his 2nd citation, Jackson shows that EGW used the word "atonement" to extend beyond the cross to relate to the 2nd Advent.

This aspects of EGWs use of the word is important to keep in mind as we relate to Christians of non-SDA background. Outside of Adventism, the Christian community at large uses the word atonement in a narrow manner to relate to the Cross.

The Christian community at large does not understand that SDAs often include it their use of the word the 2nd Advent. When we do this, we may confuse them which results in their thinking that we deny that Christ accomplished our salvation on the cross.

In any case, Jackson has failed to recognize that EGW, as demonstrated by his citations, has used the word atonement in two different ways.

[Samie]

Scriptures describe the Lord Jesus Christ, NOT simply a priest (Greek "heireus"), but as High Priest (Greek "archiereus"), in the order of Melchisedec:

Quote:

KJV Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Scriptures say that when He offered Himself, He did that in the capacity of a High Priest:

Quote:

Hebrews 7:26-27 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:25-26 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Therefore the ONCE-FOR-ETERNITY offering of Himself for the sins of the people parallels the ONCE-A-YEAR Day of Atonement in the Old Covenant. Scriptures say that the atonement done on the ONCE-A-YEAR Day of Atonement, cleanses people from all sins:

Quote:

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Similarly, in the New Covenant, the ONCE-FOR-ETERNITY offering of Himself made by Jesus on the cross, washed us clean from all sins:

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Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

The atonement made by our Savior on the cross was perfect and complete.

[Samie]

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Therefore the ONCE-FOR-ETERNITY offering of Himself for the sins of the people parallels the ONCE-A-YEAR Day of Atonement in the Old Covenant.

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Who was the High Priest? Jesus.

Who was the Offering? Jesus.

Who was the Scapegoat? Jesus.

Who was the fit Man who led the Scapegoat to a land uninhabited? Jesus.

What is represented by the land uninhabited? Death

Did Christ lead Himself to death? Yes, He laid down His life voluntarily.

Why is Satan NOT the scapegoat? Because Scriptures say that the scapegoat bears upon him all the sins of the people, and THERE IS NO RECORD in the whole of the Bible that even hints at Satan as sin-bearer. Instead, the Bible describes Jesus as sin-bearer.

Will God place upon Satan all the sins of humanity at the start of the 1000-year period? No. Why? Because in the New Covenant, God remembers our sins NO MORE. What sin will He place when He does not remember any sin?

[JoeMo]

Hi Samie,

Quote:

Will God place upon Satan all the sins of humanity at the start of the 1000-year period? No. Why? Because in the New Covenant, God remembers our sins NO MORE. What sin will He place when He does not remember any sin?

Is this true for all mankind or just those who have chosen to put their faith in Jesus? After the church is taken off of the earth (or otherwise protected), the full force of God's wrath falls on those who chose the god of this world rather than the God of heaven. Although I believe this is done to protect His chosen rather than to punish the wicked, if He's unleaching His wrath unmixed with mercy, He must be remembering something. He certainly isn't pouring it out cuz He got up on the wrong side of the bed. It follows that since satan has never and will never submit to the true Lord of the universe, His sins will be remembered.

[8thdaypriest]

I puzzled over the scapegoat some years ago, wondering just WHO it represented.

I remembered the brass serpent that Moses raised up on the pole.

We all know the serpent is a symbol of Satan, but in this case it represented Jesus - who was raised up on the cross.

He was "made to be sin" for us.

I think the same applies to the Red Heifer, and to the trespass sacrifice.

Yes - it absolutely represented Christ.

But in one sense - it ALSO represents Satan (and his followers) who will be "burned up".

David said that he lamented the success of the wicked, until he entered the Sanctuary. Then he saw what would be their end.

The record of the SIN moves from the sinner, to the animal, to the priest (who eats some of the sin sacrifice and then "carries" the SIN) - to the Sanctuary. Unless it is the Day of Atonement, when the blood is carried directly in to the Sanctuary - finally IN to the Most Holy Place.

Leviticus 16:20 says "And when he has made an END of ATONING for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the alter, he shall bring the live goat."

The sins are not put upon the scapegoat UNTIL after the atoning process is done.

THEN the sins (the previously confessed ones) are stated over the head of the scapegoat. So the sin comes back out of the Sanctuary ONTO the head of the scapegoat. And he is banished to the "uninhabited place".

Personally - I think that is a perfect way of saying that Satan is the prima fascia "cause" of those sins. It ultimately comes back to him. He will be judged culpable.

Jesus (the lamb and the priest) "carries" the SIN from the sinner TO the scapegoat (Satan). When Satan is finally burned up in the lake of fire - all those SINS of God's people will go with him.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

... It follows that since satan has never and will never submit to the true Lord of the universe, His sins will be remembered.

Yes, you are right. Sins of Satan will be remembered. But not our sins. The New Covenant is between God and humanity ONLY. It does not include the adversary.

[JoeMo]

As usual lately, we are on the same page.

[JoeMo]

Jesus (the lamb and the priest) "carries" the SIN from the sinner TO the scapegoat (Satan). When Satan is finally burned up in the lake of fire - all those SINS of God's people will go with him.

Great thought - I never considered that analogy before. Another example of Christ manifested throughout the OT an well as the New! Thanks for that!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Jesus (the lamb and the priest) "carries" the SIN from the sinner TO the scapegoat (Satan). When Satan is finally burned up in the lake of fire - all those SINS of God's people will go with him.

WE need to be careful with this.

It is this type of statement that in the past has caused people to say that SDAs believe that Satan, not Christ, carries our sins.

[Samie]

I also think that God in His justice will NOT punish somebody for the sins someone else committed.

As I had earlier posted, there is no Biblical evidence hinting at Satan as sin-bearer for our sins. Satan will bear his own sin. Jesus, Who knew NO sin, is our sin-bearer. He already took ALL our sins - past, present, future - with Him on the cross, when He fashioned humanity into His own body.

Bearing our sins, Jesus was separated from God Who is Life, and He died, EFFECTIVELY paying the wages of sin. When He, the Head, resurrected, we, His Body, resurrected together with Him, born again to a living hope of life eternal. Unless removed from His body via blotting out of names from the book of life where our names were written from the foundation of the world, we are bound for heaven.

People don't work their way to heaven. They are already heaven-bound, UNLESS they chose to be NON-OVERCOMERS, by NOT overcoming evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life. Fortunately for us, judgment whether to blot a name or not comes after a person dies. So while alive there is hope to become an overcomer. Attached to Him Who is our strength to overcome, it is not a question of INABILITY but one of REFUSAL to overcome.

There is no one ignorant of God's will, because in the new covenant, God writes His laws in the hearts and minds of each of us. To him given a few, few will be required; to him given much, much will be required. God knows what He wrote in each of us: He knows what to require from each of us as well.

[BobRyan]

When a Christian preacher tells people unless one believes and accepts the Lord Jesus as his personal savior he cannot be part of His body, the preacher is in fact telling non-Christians they are not part of the body of Christ. And if not part of His body, what then?

Our Savior says, separate from him man can do NOTHING:

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NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

So if man can do NOTHING while separate from Christ, how can he do the good acts of believing and accepting the Lord?

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NAS Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

If a person CAN believe and accept the Lord, isn't that proof he is already part of the body of Christ?

For centuries Calvinists have been arguing that first God arbitrarily zaps "some" of the lost and forces them to be born-again saints against their will - children of God and justified ---- THEN that person "decides" to follow Christ and in fact accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

Calvinists have been wrong about that - for centuries.

Romans 10 points out that the lost believe and confess "resulting in salvation".

The next question is 'how can the lost person act' and the answer is in the Bible -- the Holy Spirit supernaturally enables all -- and even the Calvinist will admit that the "DRAwING" of God "as seen in John 6" fully enables the choice that sinful depravity disables.

And of course John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" means all are enabled to choose - but does not force all to choose.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

Hi Bob;

You are right.

"John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" means all are enabled to choose". It was Christ Who drew us all to Himself through the cross where He made us - both Jews & Gentiles - part of His Body. When He - the Head - died, we - His Body - died with Him. When He resurrected, we were resurrected together with Him, born again to a living hope of life eternal.

Now that we are spiritually alive and attached to Him Who is our strength, we can now do the good acts of choosing, believing, repenting, etc. We don't do these good acts to be attached to Him; we can do these good acts because He has already drawn and attached us to His Body on the cross.

Sadly, many honestly believe and teach the opposite.

[Samie]

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We don't do these good acts to be attached to Him; we can do these good acts because He has already drawn and attached us to His Body on the cross.

Sadly, many honestly believe and teach the opposite.

Though many do not seem to realize it, to believe in "believe first to become part of the body of Christ" is belief in salvation by works, but paraded as salvation by faith.

[Samie]

Are people BEFORE and AFTER the cross, saved DIFFERENTLY?

My answer is NO. Adam & Eve and all their descendants are all saved in the same way, the ONLY Way: through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Contingent upon the death of our Savior on the cross, names of Adam & Eve and all their descendants were all written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. We don't work our way to heaven, we are already heaven-bound, because only those whose names are found written in the book of life can enter heaven. And our names were already written there!

Our names remain written UNLESS blotted out for non-overcoming evil with good, because only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life. Fortunately for us, judgment to blot a name or not only comes after a person dies. While alive, there is hope to become an overcomer. Being attached to Him Who is our Strength to overcome, it is not a question of INABILITY but one of REFUSAL to overcome.

[Samie]

Do all people have the SAME items in the list of what evil to overcome?

My answer is NO.

God knows each of us individually and knows our spiritual capacity. Nobody can feign IGNORANCE of the list, because God had it written in his heart and mind. To him given much, much will be required. To him given few, few will be required. He knows what He wrote in us, He knows what to require from us, as well.

[BobRyan]

Are people BEFORE and AFTER the cross, saved DIFFERENTLY?

[Samie]

Relative to the issue of the IJ, here are some questions to ponder, Bob:

1. Does sin defile?

2. If it does, then are there sins to be cleansed from the sanctuary in heaven?

3. If there are, then why did God allow sin to enter heaven when He explicitly said NOTHING that defiles can enter there?

[BobRyan]

Relative to the issue of the IJ, here are some questions to ponder, Bob:

1. Does sin defile?

2. If it does, then are there sins to be cleansed from the sanctuary in heaven?

3. If there are, then why did God allow sin to enter heaven when He explicitly said NOTHING that defiles can enter there?

1. Sin defiles the sinner not the Savior.

2. Sin on the record books of heaven is an "account" that needs to be settled one way or the other. Either the sinner pays for his own debt or the atonement is applied to the sinner's account. The cleansing of things in heaven has to do with resolving the outstanding accounts, unanswered questions using the Matt 7 rule of Christ "by their fruits you shall know them".

3. Not all people are saved even though God "so loved the World that He gave" and Christ's atoning sacrifice was for "OUR sin and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE world" 1 John 2:2.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

1. Sin defiles the sinner not the Savior.

I almost fell off the chair with that one, Bob.

But without any tint of malice, but just a straightforward analysis, plain and simple:

1. Question: Why did God allow sin to enter heaven when He explicitly said nothing that defiles can enter there?

2. Answer: [because although sin defiles], Sin defiles the sinner not the Savior.

3. In line with your reasoning: Can it likewise be said that because murderers cannot murder the Savior, murderers can enter heaven?

4. If murderers cannot enter heaven even if they cannot murder the Savior, what exempts sin from being denied entry to heaven even if it cannot defile the Savior?

[Samie]

2. Sin on the record books of heaven is an "account" that needs to be settled one way or the other. Either the sinner pays for his own debt or the atonement is applied to the sinner's account. The cleansing of things in heaven has to do with resolving the outstanding accounts, unanswered questions using the Matt 7 rule of Christ "by their fruits you shall know them".

[Samie]

Hi jackson;

You are well aware, brother, that the reason I was asking you for emphatic statements made by Sister White after 1900 that the atonement made at Calvary was not perfect and complete, was your "charge" that I was maligning her when I posted her statements of 1899 & 1901 where she emphatically wrote that the atonement made at Calvary was perfect and complete and that she stood by these statements until she passed away.

In an earlier response to which I had already responded, you provided PP 357.5 which you yourself noted was made in 1890. You likewise provided GC 422.1, the same statement made in GC88 422.1, and therefore a statement actually made circa 1888 and NOT in 1911.

You AGAIN referred to those two statements now.

This tells me that you cannot find any statement by Sister White after 1900 saying that the atonement made at Calvary was NOT perfect and complete. If there is none, then how can you say I was maligning her when I concluded she stood by those statements until she passed away?

Here again are those statements:

Quote:

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When he offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. {ST June 28, 1899, par. 3}

He planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. “It is enough,” He said. “The atonement is complete.”{RH September 24, 1901, par. 11}

Again, she stood by these statements until she passed away.

[Samie]

No one is disputing whether or not Christ made a perfect atonement. at the cross , of course He did. But the atonement at the cross must be actuated or by His ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary.(Rom 4:25) That work is not complete until probation closes and the confessed and repented sins of true believers are removed from the Sanctuary and placed on Satan the Scapegoat. So, no, the administration of the atonement was not completed at the cross, i.e. "not all done at the cross"

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