What Gospel Do You Believe & Preach?

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Warning:

Jackson, it is not Pam with a wrong attitude. It is you. She is correct in her assessment of how you come across as arrogant and accusatory. The one thing that will most likely get you into trouble around here is attacking someone personally as you have with Samie.

The point is that the concern is less about what you say, but how you say it. Since this is a written format where we can't read your facial expression or hear the tone of voice choosing your words carefully to convey your tone is very important.

Bark if you feel you must, but don't bite. And remember the watchdog is to warn against danger from outside the walls. The dog that snaps at and bites the children of the master gets thrown outside the walls to fend for itself among the real enemy of the master.

[Gregory Matthews]

Thank you , Tom. I have started to respond, as you did, and then stopped. You have said it better than I. Thank you for doing so.

The bottom line is that sometimes the tone of our message may prevent it from being heard.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The bottom line is that sometimes the tone of our message may prevent it from being heard.

Gregory and Tom - Well-said to both of you. Thank you.

We had a great sermon today. It was built upon the following verses:

Quote:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in, Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, or all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:20 - 30)

Such a blessing and a comfort!

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

It sounds like you are preaching predestination. That some are destined to be "Sons of God" and others are just NOT.

[Samie]

Samie,

It sounds like you are preaching predestination. That some are destined to be "Sons of God" and others are just NOT.

[8thdaypriest]

I understand the Book of Life differently.

I believe the Book contains the names of everyone who has entered into Covenant with God thru Christ.

Only when one knowingly violates Covenant without repentance, is ones name "blotted out" of the Book.

Luke 10:20 “Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Why rejoice - if your name was entered into the Book of Life at the moment of your birth, along with every other human being? The presence of your name - in the book - would be nothing special. This is why I believe that our names are entered into The Book of Life when we enter into covenant.

Philippians 4:3 “And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”

Here Paul uses space and ink (very precious in His day) to state that the names of those who labored with him, to spread the gospel “are in The Book of Life.” Saying that their names are in The Book of Life, is the same as saying “these belong to Christ.”

AT THE SECOND COMING

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.”

There are millions of human beings who lived and died WITHOUT every knowingly rebelling against the God of Heaven. If their names were written in the book WHEN they were born, then they would still be in the book (not blotted out) WHEN Christ comes. But they never knowingly CHOSE to serve the LORD.

They just get a free pass into the kingdom?? That would NOT be just. The LORD would need to manipulate their minds - without their permission - to ensure their continued harmony with His Law. That would NOT be just either.

There is a study - "The Book of Life" on my website.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Hi Rachel;

Entry into His kingdom is FREE. It is by grace. Not by man's works.

Our being written in the book of life is FREE. It is by grace. Not by our works, like, "when we ENTER into the covenant" as you said.

Quote:

NASB Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

We don't work our way to heaven. We are already heaven-bound. Our names are already in the book of life, giving us reason for rejoicing, unless Christ Himself blots out our names for NON-OVERCOMING evil during our lifetime. But blotting comes only when a person dies a non-overcomer, NOT while still alive. There is still hope while alive, for judgement only comes at death:

Quote:

Hebrews 9:27 ... it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

As to the millions you said "who lived and died WITHOUT every knowingly rebelling against the God of Heaven", they were judged according to their individual spiritual level of maturity at death, for God had also written in their hearts and minds what God knows were best for them, in exactly the same way He deals with every one, for God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34): blot the non-overcomer; retain the overcomer:

Quote:

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

From the moment of death in Eden of that animal - whose death pointed forward to the death of the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world - the skin of which God fashioned into the covering of Adam & Eve, the first couple and all their descendants all lived under the terms of the New Covenant which was ratified when Jesus died on the cross.

Based upon what God has written in our hearts and minds, it is in this lifetime where we ALL make our own decision for our eternal destiny.

In Christ our Lord & Savior,

Samie

[LifeHiscost]

Samie,

It sounds like you are preaching predestination. That some are destined to be "Sons of God" and others are just NOT.

Samie was quoting Word for Word from the Holy Bible. Some will accept what he quoted to their benefit and God's glory. Others might find it difficult to believe.

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."Romans 8:28-30 NKJV

Some erroneously believe that if predestination is to be believed, nothing they do will remove them from that coveted position. If that were true, Lucifer would never have lost his place in the kingdom.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;

I established you;

You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,

Till iniquity was found in you."Ezekiel 28:14-16 NKJV

Was the devil predestined? Doesn't appear to be from the Word. I'm satisfied to believe this below is the only safe way.

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.""John 1:14 NKJV

"So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”"Acts 16:31 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"

Based upon what God has written in our hearts and minds, it is in this lifetime where we ALL make our own decision for our eternal destiny."

Evidence to that fact is found in this Word.

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."John 20:29 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[8thdaypriest]

First we believe. (Belief requires some input of information. Infants and the ignorant CANNOT believe.)

Then we CHOOSE to serve. We walk the walk, by the power of the Spirit of Christ in us.

Some may believe - but knowingly CHOOSE to rebel against the revealed will of God.

David did. He sought forgiveness and was restored, but many others do not.

Faith (belief) without resulting works is DEAD.

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

First we believe. (Belief requires some input of information. Infants and the ignorant CANNOT believe.)

[BobRyan]

Of course , no one is disputing this except your point about forgiven sins being remembered no more. if they were remembered no more there would be no need to cleanse the sanctuary. Only when they are placed on the scapegoat are they remembered no more. . But again remember if during the judgment you have not had the "bam" experience with all your sins and you have a cherished idol (sin) that has not been confessed and forsaken your sins are not put on the scapegoat. Only the sins of overcomers are put on Satan. Your previously pardoned sins are not blotted out and remembered no more. They remain on your account, just as do those of the wicked.

Satan's guilt in leading his own subjects into sin is not the same as Satan's guilt in leading God's subject into sin - those who reject the rule Satan and daily choose to crucify self and serve Christ.

The "difference" and the debt owed cannot be added up - until the judgment concludes every case.

in Christ,

Bob

[8thdaypriest]

Originally Posted By: 8thdaypriest

First we believe. (Belief requires some input of information. Infants and the ignorant CANNOT believe.)

True.

Question is: when is belief exercised? BEFORE we were attached to Christ or AFTER?

Belief is the result of faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit is the result of being attached to Christ.

Therefore, we can only believe AFTER we were attached to Christ.

As to the Infants or little children (Greek "paidon"):

Quote:

KJV Matthew 19:

13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

KJV Matthew 18:

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus Himself assured His disciples little children are heaven-bound. Their names are therefore, already in the book of life, for only those written in the book of life can enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

As to the ignorant, I have addressed the issue HERE.

Your faith must be LIKE a child's trusting faith. He didn't say "these children will go straight into the kingdom."

Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless my Father draws him." (John 6:44)

One can FEEL the drawing power of God's spirit - but refuse to be drawn. (We human beings CAN resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51, Romans 13:2)

OR - one can feel the drawing power and accept. One is NOT "in Christ" just because he/she has felt the drawing power.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

Only those whose names are in the book of life can be allowed entry to heaven (Rev 21:27). And since those little children have their names written there, they are, as with us, heaven-bound, UNLESS our names are blotted out for non-overcoming with good.

As to God's drawing us to Him, our Savior has ALREADY drawn ALL MEN to Himself on the cross. The Lord said that on the cross, He will draw all men to Himself:

Quote:

KJV John 12:

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The apostle Paul explains that our Lord did the drawing of ALL MEN unto Himself on the cross, by fashioning them into His body with the intent of RECONCILING both Jews & Gentiles to God:

Quote:

NKJ Ephesians 2:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands --

12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

That death on the cross RECONCILED us all to God:

Quote:

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

As a result, we ALL are NOW members of the household or family of God:

Quote:

NKJ Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God

Being part of His Body, we are attached to Him Who is our Strength to overcome evil with good. We can now do the good acts of Believing, Repenting, etc. If we refuse to believe, then we have been overcome with the evil of UNBELIEF, instead of overcoming it with the good act of Believing. If we refuse to repent, then we have not overcome the evil of impenitence.

It all redounds to overcoming evil with good or not. Choose to overcome evil with good and remain written; choose NOT to and get blotted out.

The CHOICE is NOW.

[JoeMo]

Hey Samie,

I'm a little hesitant to infer from the scriptures you quoted that they pertain to all mankind. When Jesus "I will draw all men to me", that doesn't mean that all men would succumb to being drawn. When Paul said "we were reconciled to God" and we are "members of the household of God", he was writing specifically to the Roman church and Ephesian church - not all mankind.

Like I said in a previous post - whether our names are written in the Book of Life "before the foundation of the world"; only to be blotted out if we reject grace; or our names are not written in the Book until we put our faith and trust in Christ, the results are the same - only those who want to be in the Kingdom will be there.

[Samie]

Hey Samie,

I'm a little hesitant to infer from the scriptures you quoted that they pertain to all mankind. When Jesus "I will draw all men to me", that doesn't mean that all men would succumb to being drawn.

[JoeMo]

Hi Samie,

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with your take on the Book of Life - it is a plausible scenario; but IMHO so is mine and 8thdaypriest's. Both scenarios end up in the same place when all is said and done - those who eventually put their faith and love in Jesus Christ and want to be in the Kingdom will be there. How their names get into the Book is not a salvational issue; but it sure is exciting to think about and discuss!

[Samie]

Hi Samie,

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with your take on the Book of Life - it is a plausible scenario; but IMHO so is mine and 8thdaypriest's. Both scenarios end up in the same place when all is said and done - those who eventually put their faith and love in Jesus Christ and want to be in the Kingdom will be there. How their names get into the Book is not a salvational issue; but it sure is exciting to think about and discuss!

Thanks for that, brother.

Discussion-wise, it appears you and Rachel propose people are written in the book of life WHEN they enter into a covenant-relationship with God. This sounds like a works-based salvation because UNLESS a person puts in his share, he cannot have the pie.

In contrast, having our names written in the book of life - the registry of the citizens of heaven - from the foundation of the world, contingent upon the death of our Savior on the cross is purely grace-based salvation. We did not do anything to be written there. Being in the registry of heaven, our destination is sure: heaven, UNLESS our names are blotted out for not overcoming evil with good. It is not the overcoming thing that CAUSED our being saved: we are already heaven-bound BEFORE overcoming came.

This puts everyone BEFORE or AFTER the cross in equal-footing. Overcoming is based on what God has written in our hearts and minds. To him much is given, much will be required; to him given few, few will be required; to him given none, will God require something? Any good, earthly father wouldn't. And God is the BEST Father.

Understandably, there's just no need for an 8th-millennium-chance that Rachel proposes.

[8thdaypriest]

If all names are written in the Book of Life from the moment of conception, or birth, or from eternity maybe

- THEN why "go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them" ??

Their names are already in the Book anyway.

Sins of ignorance are not counted against them.

So - WHY educate them? Just leave them alone and they will be in the kingdom.

Let them live on in ignorance, and they will be included in the kingdom of God..

To me - the fact that we are commanded to educate them, and baptize them (if they choose to enter into Covenant) tells me that this education DOES make difference. We are extending the invitation to LIFE.

Now I personally believe their response to the education (coupled with the drawing of the Spirit) will decide whether these people will receive eternal life at the Second Coming, OR be judged wicked at the Second Coming.

If they remain ignorant (through no fault of their own), then they will come up at the 8th millennium - to be educated and then make their choice. But they must ultimately CHOOSE.

Some would say that missionaries don't make any difference then. But they DO - because Jesus needs priests from EVERY nation, kindred, tongue, people and time period - to teach and govern the people who come up at the 8th day. And if WE ignore His clear command - then WE will be found wanting.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

In the last days, EVERYONE on planet earth "will worship him" (the Beast), except those whose names are IN the Book of Life.

All these people are STILL ALIVE - but their names are NOT in the Book of Life.

I think it very possible that many will worship the Beast ignorantly - not realizing what they are doing. They will be deceived just as Eve was deceived.

ONLY those whose names ARE in the Book of Life WILL NOT worship the Beast. Christ will warn them. By His Spirit, they will see thru the deception.

As I see it, All of the people whose names DO NOT APPEAR in the Book of Life, (who worship the Beast) can be divided into

1. Those who once WERE in Covenant but have forsaken HIM.

2. Those who have never entered into covenant (either thru ignorance or because they refused the invitation).

Those who refused the invitation will be judged wicked at the Second Coming. Those who never entered into covenant because they never received the invitation (they were never called), will sleep thru the 7th millennium to rise at the 8th Day.

Yes - there is the verse which says that He "calls all men everywhere to repent". But HOW DOES HE CALL? The message is taken by His messengers - human beings. Let's face it - some just never got the message.

He chose everyone - yes. He wants everyone - yes.

His invitation is for everyone - yes.

But He allows human beings to refuse the invitation.

And to give children and the ignorant a "FREE PASS" because they were too young, or too uninformed to refuse is not just!

It changes the salvation issue to sins committed vs sins covered, rather than a personal relationship of trust and submission with Jesus Christ and God His Father.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Discussion-wise, it appears you and Rachel propose people are written in the book of life WHEN they enter into a covenant-relationship with God. This sounds like a works-based salvation because UNLESS a person puts in his share, he cannot have the pie.

How is it "works" to cry out "I believe LORD. Please cover me." ?? How is it "works" to be baptized ??

My "good works" are NOT MINE anyway. They are done thru me by Christ. All I did was agree to the indwelling. The "good works" are just evidence of that indwelling.

And selfish or rebellious "works" are evidence that the indwelling is lacking, or at least has a weak connection.

I don't understand your view that responding to HIM is "works".

Rachel

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

You have just answered your own question. And you have it right. The only thing amiss is the 8th millennium thing.

The command is given HERE on this earth, HERE in this time frame. The response to the command is to be done HERE, HERE in this time frame, because the Command-giver said that when He comes again to this earth He "will reward EVERY MAN according to their works".

You have your own reason for not including those you don't want included in the phrase "EVERY MAN". I respect that. But, for me, there is no clear biblical reason why the phrase would exclude anybody, UNLESS shown otherwise.

There seems to be no valid biblical basis for the 8th millennium thing you are proposing, Sister.

Also, you have yet to address the works-based-salvation leaning as to the timing of when a person's name is written in the book of life - the registry of the citizens of heaven.

If I recall correctly, you mentioned Adam was only written in it when he entered into a covenant relationship with God through the first lamb sacrifice. That makes Adam a non-citizen of heaven before the Fall.

The fact that our names are already in the book of life NECESSITATES our being educated before we actually live there, hence the need of educating its non-resident citizens the proper lifestyle before they immigrate there. And the best lifestyle is that of our Savior. Notice that this was the plan BEFORE the foundation of the world. See Eph 1:3-6.

This aforementioned fact weighs heavily against the only other alternative that preachers INVITE non-citizen sinners to become citizens of heaven.

[Samie]

In the last days, EVERYONE on planet earth "will worship him" (the Beast), except those whose names are IN the Book of Life.

All these people are STILL ALIVE - but their names are NOT in the Book of Life.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Discussion-wise, it appears you and Rachel propose people are written in the book of life WHEN they enter into a covenant-relationship with God. This sounds like a works-based salvation because UNLESS a person puts in his share, he cannot have the pie.

How is it "works" to cry out "I believe LORD. Please cover me." ?? How is it "works" to be baptized ??

[JoeMo]

Our "work" is to surrender ourselves to Christ and rest in His righteousness. This is work! How easy is it to admit that you have fallen short of the mark? How do you resisit the accusations of the evil one that you are not worthy; that you are a hypocrite; and that God is angry with you? How easy is it to approach the throne of grace in our time of need when we think God is angry with us? I have to fight every day to rely on Christ for my righteousness and power to overcome rather than relying on my own efforts. Righteousness is not achieved by right doing; it is achieved right believing and right standing with Christ. The Holy Spirit might convict the world of sin, but He convicts believers of righteousness because He (Jesus) has overcome the world - not us. That's why the Holy Spirit is called the Comforter. See John 16. We don't "earn" grace by doing good works: we do good works cuz we have been given grace. Any good works we do are the RESULT of salvation; not the PREREQUISITE. But they are nonetheless work. The works may not save us; but they show the world that we are changed; and who knows? They may motivate someone else to seek salvation.

When Jesus says "many are called; but few are chosen", couldn't He be saying that "everyone is invited to be included in the Book of Life; but few unconditionally accept the invitation"? And why don't they accept the invitation? because their self-righteousness demands that they "do it themselves".