Without a Mediator

[8thdaypriest]

Why don't you know? Are there not a multitude of scriptures which attest to this very thing?

Rev 3:21         To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 

"Overcometh" -  Would this be everything defined as "sin" by the Law.  Or simply the specific TEST brought to the individual?  There were many martyrs for Jesus, who were eating unclean foods, and resting on Sunday. 

Zeph 3:13  The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid. 

WHEN?  The context seems to place this in the final Kingdom, which I would place AFTER their complete healing - which is NOT complete at the Second Coming.

Rev 14:3         And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.  14:4    These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 14:5    And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 

They are "without fault" BECAUSE Jesus has covered their lack of perfection.  The Lord called Job, "a perfect and an upright man" (Job 1:8) - yet we know that Job was a bit self righteous.  The LORD could not save Job, until Job became aware of His need for a savior. 

Was Jesus asking the impossible when he said "   Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11.

Jesus also said, "Be ye therefore perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."  (Matt 5:48), but the only way we can achieve such "perfection" is for Jesus to present His perfection in place of our imperfection. 

2Pet 3:14         Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 

1Cor 1:7          So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:   1:8      Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

2 Cor 7:1         Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Eph 4:11          And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;   4:12       For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:   4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 

Phil 2:14         Do all things without murmurings and disputings:  2:15    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Thes 3:12     And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all [men], even as we [do] toward you:  3:13    To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 

1Thes 5:23      And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  5:24    Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it]. 

1Tim 6:14       That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 

Jude 1:24   Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Heb 9:14         How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 

Heb 10:1         For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.   10:2    For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

I some responses between Jackson's references - in red.    The word translated as "perfect" also means "complete" or "lacking nothing"  in both OT and NT. 

Colossians 2:10 "and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power" (NKJ). 

I don't think Paul was telling all of the Colossians that they had (at that time) overcome every sin, every temptation, and every test.  They were not perfect (sinless) in the literal sense, having no need of further growth in grace.  They were  "complete" or "perfect" - "in Him" BECAUSE He adds His perfection to our lack of it. 

All of the Apostles admonished the followers of Christ, to strive with heart, mind, and strength to serve the LORD.  They also said God forgives- if we stumble.  Your position seems to be that God will declare, "Times up!" after which point HE will no longer forgive, regardless of whether we ask in the name of Jesus.   No one can "stumble" after that moment, and be saved.  Believers must then - for some period of time on this earth - serve the LORD "perfectly" or loose eternal life. 

That would be putting a heavier burden upon the very last followers of Christ, than has EVER been put upon any servant of God prior to that time. 

I personally believe that the words of Revelation 22:11, will be spoken by God, at the SAME TIME that the 7 wrath plagues are poured out upon the "wicked".   That will be the DAY of the Voice of God.  The redeemed will be translated to the Sea of Glass - on that DAY.  They will not spend ANY time - on this earth - AFTER these words are spoken, much less have to maintain "perfection" during that period of time.   

We just see things differently Jackson.  You quote all the "perfection" verses.  I read them too.  But I realize that I cannot achieve perfection by TRYING HARDER.  I read those verses as promises, of what Christ will do in me.  I read the Commandments in the same way - as promises of what I will become.   My "perfection" will be HIS WORK, NOT MINE.  Does that mean I do not have to "strive".  Of course not!  Does it mean that I can just ignore God stated will (His commandments).  No!  I am NOT advocating "cheap grace" here, with no regard whatsoever, for His Law.

It's just a realization that all my righteousness is like "filthy rags".  It is peace, because I realize that HE has promised to do it - IN ME.  It means that I STOP monitoring myself so harshly. 

Jesus has promised me eternal life.  I believe He will keep His promise.  He didn't say, "If you're perfect, then I'll save you." 

I used to beat people over the head with all the "perfection" verses.  I used to quote the EGW one's also.  And I lived in constant FEAR that I could die suddenly, with a sin on my soul.  I felt complete discouragement, and slumped into depression. 

Jackson.  I BELIEVE that Jesus will perfect me.  Exactly how, and when - is up to HIM. 

Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[Martn]

 

"The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from nature, the being of man. The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. 'The worshippers once purged' --actually purged by the blood of Christ-- have 'no more conscience of sins,' because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them --it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself --they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the TRUE sanctuary." (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902, emphasis mine)

These are the greatest, and truest, words Sister White ever wrote. The statement means just what it says, and it is very Good News. The very best news ever reported. Presently sanctification is a long and difficult process because the time has not yet come for mass transformation, but when it does we shall be changed in an instant, in the blinking of an eye, as long as we have not ceased building relationship with the one whose healing power can and will make us bodily/mentally whole. Change comes at the instant of resurrection, and when we who are alive and remain are caught up with them.

 

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

 

"The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from nature, the being of man. The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. 'The worshippers once purged' --actually purged by the blood of Christ-- have 'no more conscience of sins,' because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them --it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself --they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the TRUE sanctuary." (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902, emphasis mine)

These are the greatest, and truest, words Sister White ever wrote. The statement means just what it says, and it is very Good News. The very best news ever reported. Presently sanctification is a long and difficult process because the time has not yet come for mass transformation, but when it does we shall be changed in an instant, in the blinking of an eye, as long as we have not ceased building relationship with the one whose healing power can and will make us bodily/mentally whole. Change comes at the instant of resurrection, and when we who are alive and remain are caught up with them.

 

 

 

I agree these are great words, but E. J. Waggoner wrote them.

[A Christian Brother]

Ellen White contradicts, adds to, or takes away from the Holy Bible. Read the Great Controversy then the Book of Revelation. Revelation 22:18-19:

"I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. ¹⁹ And if anyone takes away from the words of this prophetic book, God will take away his share of the tree of life and the holy city, written in this book."

Likewise, she adds doctrines that are not based on other books of the Bible.

Ellen White Wrote:

“But clearer light came with the investigation of the sanctuary question. They now saw that they were correct in believing that the end of the 2300 days in 1844 marked an important crisis. But while it was true that that door of hope and mercy by which men had for eighteen hundred years found access to God, was closed, another door was opened, and forgiveness of sins was offered to men through the intercession of Christ in the most holy. One part of His ministration had closed, only to give place to another. There was still an “open door” to the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ was ministering in the sinner’s behalf.” Christ in His Sanctuary, p. 107

The Bible said:

"“But the Messiah has appeared, high priest of the good things that have come. In the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands (that is, not of this creation), ¹² He entered the most holy place once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.” – Hebrews 9:11-12

“Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. ¹² But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. ¹³ He is now waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. ¹⁴ For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.” – Hebrews 10:11-14

We are already under forgiveness. Note that the Bible says that Jesus already obtained "eternal redemption." This happened during the first century AD, while Paul, Peter, James, and others were writing their "books."

I could give you more examples...

1)  The Investigative Judgment is NOT Biblical

2)  Contrary to what Mrs. White said, the Ten Commandments (especially Sabbath, adultery?) were not kept in heaven before creation.

3)  Noah did not preach for 120 years. (Read Genesis yourself.)

4)  Martin Luther did not become a monk for the reason that Mrs. White claimed. (Her writings contradict his own.)

5)  Sins were not placed on Satan, they were placed on Jesus.

6)  The Sabbath was NEVER given to the Gentiles.

7)  There is no record that Paul or any of the other apostles told Gentiles to keep the Sabbath, none!

8)  Adam was with Eve when they both ate the forbidden fruit. (Genesis 3:6)

and much more...

Thank you and God Bless!

 

 

[Martn]

I agree these are great words, but E. J. Waggoner wrote them.

Thank you. I agree Waggoner has the credit. The words were published in his name.

Is it known, or not, that Sister White bore private testimony to Waggoner, and others?

I find the words are in her style, not his.

I believe she changed and improved views in later years, but generally could not go public of course.

Edited August 18, 2015 by MCBGM

[Martn]

The Sabbath was NEVER given to the Gentiles.

 

 

This is the Jewish position, precisely. (Did you know SDA's are largely despised in modern Israel, because of their attempted Sabbath keeping? Israeli Jews find this practice highly offensive! Only Gentiles who FULLY convert to Judaism are permitted to keep the Sabbath.) We know, from the Talmud for example, that in Jesus' day Gentiles were absolutely forbidden --ON PAIN OF DEATH-- to keep the Sabbath. Non-Jewish Christians, therefore, could not have kept the Sabbath even if they had wanted to. (This fact is very well known in the Jewish community, but SDA's and others of course close their minds to it, for obvious reasons.) If non-Jewish Christians had ever tried to keep the Sabbath, or teach others to do so, it would have caused such an uprising among the Jews, in every city of the Roman Empire, as to make the huge controversy over Gentile circumcision seem like nothing at all.

The Jewish teaching was, and still is, this: The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath, were given ONLY to the Jews. A lesser set of laws called the Noachide laws, resembling most of what is found in the last half of the Ten Commandments, was given through Noah to his Gentile descendants. These apply to both Jews and Gentiles alike, but most of what we find in the Ten Commandments, especially in the first half, apply only to Jews. (That is why only the last half of the Ten Commandments are quoted together, repeatedly, in Christian scriptures, while the first half is never once quoted altogether.) God had intended the Sabbath for all humanity --in the beginning, but when Adam and Eve rebelled they forfeited all right to it for themselves and their descendants ever after them. That is why we never, ever hear about the Sabbath again --until the time of Abraham. Because, as Judaism teaches, Abraham was the first Jew. Sabbath keeping cannot be a requirement for salvation, therefore. Unless one is Jewish, that is.

Did you know, that in the earth made new, Gentiles will still be permitted to worship other gods? (See Micah 4:5, KJV, for example.) Orthodox rabbis understand this to mean that Hindus will continue to practice Hinduism; Buddhists will continue to practice Buddhism; Christians will continue to worship Jesus; while only Jews will be required to worship God, because not even the first commandment applies to Gentiles!!!

[A Christian Brother]

"Did you know, that in the earth made new, Gentiles will still be permitted to worship other gods? (See Micah 4:5, KJV, for example.) Orthodox rabbis understand this to mean that Hindus will continue to practice Hinduism; Buddhists will continue to practice Buddhism; Christians will continue to worship Jesus; while only Jews will be required to worship God, because not even the first commandment applies to Gentiles!!!"

Okay, let me try to digest all of the information you provided.

Yes, my study of Judaism, and the input of my sister who converted to Judaism as an older adult, confirms that Gentiles are not under most of the law, save a few of the 613 commandments or mitsvah. (SDA's who proclaim knowledge of the law fail to grasp the whole concept of the equality of the commandments.)

However, your above quote is, shall we say in "left field."

Micah 4:5 could mean several things. Please note that injured persons are mentioned in this chapter, and the New Heavens and Earth will include no sickness, suffering, and so forth. Also what other "nations" will exist at that time?

That verse aside, let's examine the number of verses in the New Testament that condemn, forbid, and/or warn us against idolatry. These are only a few:

Acts 15 - The Jerusalem Council forbid Gentile converts from eating food sacrificed to idols.

Acts 17:16 - Paul was "troubled" by a city full of "idols."

Romans 1:23-26 call idolatry "depravity" and tell how God punished those who made idols of animals, such as mammals or reptiles. Then the depraved way the people act (homosexuality) is described.

1 Corinthians 5:11, 6:9, 10:14 all tell us to either flee form idolatry, or that those who practice it will not "inherit" the kingdom.

Also see Ephesians 5:5, and Colossians 3:5.

In addition, Jesus taught that He was the way to the Father, on several occasions (Luke 10, John 1, John 6, John 10:30, John 14:6...)

You need to review the Bible a little more before claiming that people in Heaven or on the New Earth will worship any other "god(s)."

As for the Sabbath, we seem to agree in part. I do not believe that it was given to Adam and Eve, but to the Children of Israel in Exodus 16:23, for the first time. That is the first Bible reference to the word "Sabbath."

God Bless!

[CFK1]

Ellen White contradicts, adds to, or takes away from the Holy Bible. Read the Great Controversy then the Book of Revelation. Revelation 22:18-19:

"I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. ¹⁹ And if anyone takes away from the words of this prophetic book, God will take away his share of the tree of life and the holy city, written in this book."

Likewise, she adds doctrines that are not based on other books of the Bible.

Ellen White Wrote:

“But clearer light came with the investigation of the sanctuary question. They now saw that they were correct in believing that the end of the 2300 days in 1844 marked an important crisis. But while it was true that that door of hope and mercy by which men had for eighteen hundred years found access to God, was closed, another door was opened, and forgiveness of sins was offered to men through the intercession of Christ in the most holy. One part of His ministration had closed, only to give place to another. There was still an “open door” to the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ was ministering in the sinner’s behalf.” Christ in His Sanctuary, p. 107

The Bible said:

"“But the Messiah has appeared, high priest of the good things that have come. In the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands (that is, not of this creation), ¹² He entered the most holy place once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.” – Hebrews 9:11-12

“Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. ¹² But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. ¹³ He is now waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. ¹⁴ For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.” – Hebrews 10:11-14

We are already under forgiveness. Note that the Bible says that Jesus already obtained "eternal redemption." This happened during the first century AD, while Paul, Peter, James, and others were writing their "books."

I could give you more examples...

1)  The Investigative Judgment is NOT Biblical

2)  Contrary to what Mrs. White said, the Ten Commandments (especially Sabbath, adultery?) were not kept in heaven before creation.

3)  Noah did not preach for 120 years. (Read Genesis yourself.)

4)  Martin Luther did not become a monk for the reason that Mrs. White claimed. (Her writings contradict his own.)

5)  Sins were not placed on Satan, they were placed on Jesus.

6)  The Sabbath was NEVER given to the Gentiles.

7)  There is no record that Paul or any of the other apostles told Gentiles to keep the Sabbath, none!

8)  Adam was with Eve when they both ate the forbidden fruit. (Genesis 3:6)

and much more...

Thank you and God Bless!

 

 

Obviously you are not a Seventh-day Adventist. That leaves me to wonder why you would be a member of a Seventh-day Adventist forum.  Would you mind explaining that?  Thanks.

[A Christian Brother]

I was an SDA for over 25 years, and was active in the church. Upon reading the Bible through a couple of times and many additional hours of research, I discovered that what I was led to believe all those years was incorrect, and not based on the Bible. I am seeking for someone to show me otherwise, using only the Bible.

I was not aware that you had to be an SDA to join this forum. I am a member of other forums which are for former SDA's and often SDA's join to engage in sharing Bible verses and doctrines.

If you are saying that you are not willing to back up your beliefs with the Bible in this forum, then I have no desire to remain.

Please let me know.

God Bless!

 

- Dave

[pnattmbtc]

I'm not an admin on the forum, but it is my observation that non-SDA's are encouraged to take part in the forum, provided they follow the rules.  There are many non-SDA's who participate.

[8thdaypriest]

But do you still not know that there will be men and woman in this life that will not be sinning when Jesus comes? You seem to have strong opinions on many matters where the scriptures are vague, but here you "don't know" when there are clear scriptures?

Of course no one is perfect in the sense of sinlessness, since all have sinned, but the work of sanctification is to make us partakers of the Divine nature and provide for your overcoming sin. Having a Godly, divine nature combining with our fallen natures is the mystery that Paul speaks of as Heretofore "hid from ages and generations"

Yes - I agree with THAT.

Col 1:26           [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:   1:27       To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:   1:28     Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 

Exactly WHEN will Christ "present" us to His Father - perfected, completely healed, fully circumcised, and acceptable?  The ancient TYPES connected with the Tabernacle, suggest that this will happen "at the 8th day".  When is "the 8th day"?  Is it not the 8th millennium?  "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years."

2 Pet 1:4          Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This is the object of the sanctification process and will culminate in the 144,000 going through the last plagues without a mediator and being alive to meet the Lord at his SC.

This is EGW interpretation.  I don't agree with it. 

If you wish to object to all the other posted  verses regarding perfection of the saints , then just reading Rev 14:4-5 should  remove your doubts.          "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.  14:5    And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Jackson, I personally believe (at this point from my study) that the 144,000 represent ALL of those who will be redeemed at the Second Coming.  Symbolically 12,000 from the OT ages, and 12,000 from the NT era.  They are restored to "virginal" state, when the record of their transgressions is wiped out (at the coming Day of Atonement).  Jesus the High Priest, can now legally marry this virgin of Israel.  They will "follow" Jesus back to this earth, at the end of the 7th millennium.  They are called "first fruits" because the greater part of humanity will come into the Kingdom, after the 7th millennium, during the 8th day. 

I realize that you don't agree with any of that.  I was just demonstrating that there is more than one interpretation of the prophecy concerning the 144,000.  You hold to the interpretation that EGW endorsed.  I don't. 

Of course we should not monitor ourselves too harshly, but it is needful to monitor oneself closely lest Satan drive us to the other extreme and we are led to believe Jesus' promises are without conditions. As Paul has said, we are to strive against sin and resit unto blood if necessary.

We should also not allow Satan to  depress us with his annoyances , nor should we let him convince us that we cannot do everything through Christ who strengthens us,  

We should preserve the strictest chastity in thought and word and deportment. Let us remember that God sets our secret sins in the light of His countenance. There are thoughts and feelings suggested and aroused by Satan that annoy even the best of men; but if they are not cherished, if they are repulsed as hateful, the soul is not contaminated with guilt, and no other is defiled by their influence. Oh, that we each might become a savor of life unto life to those around us!.--RH, Mar 27, 1888.

I put my responses in red.

PS:  Thousands will be resurrected, when Jesus calls them forth.  These people died in various stages of moral maturity.  Some died having just believed.  They had just begun their walk.  Others died, having been tested for decades, who matured in faith, and in moral thinking and behavior.  But they ALL will stand in the sight of God - on THAT DAY.  Those who had not yet overcome all their bad habits, stand forgiven, and Jesus will cover their deficits. 

What is the difference between someone who lives to the END, and someone who is resurrected.    The only difference is the accident of timing.  One was born in the past.  One closer to the END.  BOTH will be standing in the sight of God - on THAT DAY.

Jackson, 

You believe that "probation will close", and THEN the 7 wrath plagues will be poured out.  God's people will be living on the earth AFTER probation closes, and will go through the wrath plagues.  I DO NOT AGREE with that interpretation. 

I believe that probation will close ("filthy still") for all of those on the earth, WHEN the Voice of God calls the "two witnesses" from their graves, and they ascend to heaven.  I believe this is "the Voice of God" at the Second Coming.  In my view, the redeemed will not spend ANY time on this earth AFTER "probation closes". 

I believe there will be a 1260 day, 42 month, time-times-and a part, time of terrible persecution LEADING UP TO the time for the saints to "possess the kingdom".  (Daniel 7:22). 

I believe that the 2 witnesses will be giving their testimony DURING this time.  I believe the BEAST and the "Little Horn" will be ruling and persecuting DURING this time. 

I believe the Trumpet Judgments will happen DURING this time. 

At the END of this time, the two witnesses will be "killed" or at least a universal death penalty will be passed.  3.5 days later, the Voice of God will resurrect the redeemed, and they will ascend to Heaven (Rev. 11:12).  And probation will CLOSE for those LEFT on the earth. 

I do NOT BELIEVE the redeemed will "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" - AT ANY TIME.  

A priest is a mediator.  Jesus is a priest.  God the Father said to His Son, "thou art a priest forever".  FOREVER!  Not - "Thou art a priest until the Second Coming" or "Thou art a priest until the close of probation".  

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson,

How do you DEFINE the word "probation" ?    I couldn't find it in any translation. 

Is it not the time during which an individual could come to the Tabernacle with a "sin offering"?  Translating that into our day, with Christ as our "sin offering",  "probation" would be:   the time period during which one may come to Christ.      (NOT - the time period during which one must reach literal character perfection) 

In that ancient Tabernacle context, probation CLOSED (for the year) when the High Priest entered the MHP with the blood of the Lord's goat.  No blood from another sin offering could be transferred to the Tabernacle, AFTER the HP entered the MHP.  Any Israelite who had failed to bring a sin-offering before this day, and to humble his heart before the LORD on this day was "cut off" from Israel ON THIS DAY. 

So - probation closed on the Day of Atonement.  Up til that day, you could bring a sin-offering.  After that day - "you were cut off". 

This is WHY I believe that the Second Coming will BE the Day of Atonement.  Israel is gathered, and everyone else (who knowingly failed to find forgiveness in Christ) will be "cut off".  I just do NOT BELIEVE that the DAY of Atonement can be strrrrreeeetched out over 175+ years.  That just makes no sense - to me. 

WHEN "probation closed" on the Day of Atonement, it's doubtful anyone within the camp of Israel was literally "perfect".  They were only "perfect" - meaning "without sin" - BECAUSE all their sins were "covered".  What will the redeemed will be like, when they all receive their "glorified bodies"?  Maybe they will be so filled with the spirit of Christ, that they will not entertain a sinful desire again for all eternity.  On the other hand, maybe they will need some period of rehabilitation before they all grow to that maturity.  

Blessings,  Rachel Cory,  prophecyviewpoint.com

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

This is WHY I believe that the Second Coming will BE the Day of Atonement.  Israel is gathered, and everyone else (who knowingly failed to find forgiveness in Christ) will be "cut off".  I just do NOT BELIEVE that the DAY of Atonement can be strrrrreeeetched out over 175+ years.  That just makes no sense - to me. 

A couple of thoughts.  If you do the math, it comes out to something like 5 years, so Jesus should have come in 1849 to keep the proportions the same.  It certainly doesn't make sense that it should take going on 200 years.  There's a book called "Grace on Trial" by Robert Wieland which discusses this.  I couldn't recommend that book highly enough.  It had a great impact on me.

[Martn]

Jesus taught that He was the way to the Father, on several occasions (Luke 10, John 1, John 6, John 10:30, John 14:6...)

We are in agreement on the Sabbath question. It's hard to miss.

I agree the Sabbath was not given to Adam and Eve. God intended to do so, I suspect, but they rebelled before that could happen.

Yes I realize my take on Micah 4:5 isn't going to be popular, but I stand by it. Understandably the rabbis are very guarded about this, because of the severe condemnation such a position brings in the larger Christian and Muslim world. The only Orthodox rabbi who would discuss this with me openly has now toned his message down considerably because of the backlash. Sad. Bigotry, especially religious bigotry, is very sad.

I agree no other gods could be worshiped in heaven, there in the very face of God. However on earth different conditions will prevail, at least until the "healing of the Nations [Gentiles]" is accomplished (Rev. 22:2), possibly ages and ages afterward.

Idolatry (image worship) per se is not something I see ever having a place in the earth made new. Jews, by the way, do not consider Christian worship of Jesus to be idolatrous, because Christians still worship only one god even though they perceive multiple persons within this one being. Even in those religions where multiple beings are worshiped, worship will be limited to just one god by the time each enters the new world, and it is almost that way now.

As for Jesus' being the only way to God, I would say this is true for those to whom the Father has not already come. The Father can go to whomever he chooses, but for people to go to the Father when he has not yet come to them, they need a mediator (someone to show them the way). Jesus probably is that way --for Gentiles. The continued existence of Christianity in the new earth probably is what eventually will bring all other religions to God, at which point even Jesus will step down, Paul says. (1 Cor. 15:28.)

 

 

[A Christian Brother]

MCBGM:

 

I am puzzled by your interpretation of Rev 22:2. This is after Satan and all evil has been vast into the "lake of fire." Rev 20. How can you rationalize that any other "gods" would be worshiped? This is God's domain, and the competition is in the lake of fire. God will live among us on the New Earth.

[8thdaypriest]

On the day of atonement one must search the heart to see that known sins  have been  confessed, repented of  and forsaken. Known yet unreppented and unforskaen sins are not covered by Christ.

"Coming to Christ" is meaningless unless it involves the repentance and forsaking of sins.

Prvb  28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.

I do not disagree with you Jackson.  I agree, that "known sin" must be confessed and forsaken. 

What I'm saying is that we all have sinful (not completely selfless) thoughts and actions, that we are not completely AWARE OF.  And that means we are not "perfect".  That "unconscious" sin is "covered" by the blood of Jesus.  The "babes in Christ" probably have even more things that Jesus has not yet completely cleansed from their characters.  

You think I'm saying that everyone can relax and forget about their behavior.  I'm NOT!!!  

I can no more be "perfect" than Peter could walk on water.  The harder I "strive" - in my own strength.  The faster I sink.  It is in drawing near to Christ, reading the stories of victory, building faith - THAT is what brings victory.     

 

[8thdaypriest]

The daily morning sacrifice was offered on the Day of Atonement.  That sacrifice covered unknown (unconscious) sins, including those of "the nations".  That was the ONLY sacrifice offered ON the Day of Atonement, other than the bull (for the priests) and the Lord's goat (for the entire congregation). 

Once the High Priest ENTERED into the Most Holy Place, there was NO FURTHER OPPORTUNITY to confess known sins, or to offer a "sin offering" to obtain "atonement" for those sins.  This is WHY I believe that "probation" closes WHEN our High Priest enters the Court scene of Heaven (Daniel 7:9-10).  I do not believe this has happened YET.  Hence - probation continues. 

The Millerites believed this, as did the pioneers of Adventism along with Mrs White.  They THOUGHT probation had closed.  And IF Jesus really did enter the MHP of Heaven on October 22, 1844, then they would were correct. 

I do NOT BELIEVE that Jesus entered the MHP in 1844, because probation has continued. 

Jackson said,  "On the day of atonement one must search the heart to see that known sins have been confessed, repented of  and forsaken."

CJB  Leviticus 16:29 "It is to be a permanent regulation for you that on the tenth day of the seventh month you are to deny yourselves and not do any kind of work, both the citizen and the foreigner living with you. (Lev 16:29 CJB)

Fasting is ordained - from sunset of the 9th until sunset of the 10th.  And also "rest". 

My husband and I DO FAST and pray on this day, and we treat it as a sabbath.   Do you?

[pnattmbtc]

I do not disagree with you Jackson.  I agree, that "known sin" must be confessed and forsaken. 

What I'm saying is that we all have sinful (not completely selfless) thoughts and actions, that we are not completely AWARE OF.  And that means we are not "perfect".  That "unconscious" sin is "covered" by the blood of Jesus.  The "babes in Christ" probably have even more things that Jesus has not yet completely cleansed from their characters.  

You think I'm saying that everyone can relax and forget about their behavior.  I'm NOT!!!  

I can no more be "perfect" than Peter could walk on water.  The harder I "strive" - in my own strength.  The faster I sink.  It is in drawing near to Christ, reading the stories of victory, building faith - THAT is what brings victory.     

 

1.Given that all have thoughts and actions that we are not completely aware of, must it be the case that all humans and all times will always have such thoughts and actions?  Is it possible that God could make known such thoughts and actions?  Given that God could do this, is this something God would want to do?

I think these are important questions to consider.  If there is to be a generation which stands before a holy God without a mediator (in context, this mediation means ministering for the forgiveness of sins), what is the purpose involved?

2.You write, "that "unconscious" sin is "covered" by the blood of Jesus."  What does this mean?  From a healing standpoint, does this sentence make sense?  Actually, I can see a way that it does, but am curious as to what you meant by it.

3.Regarding perfection, why do you put in the limitation of "in my own strength."  Could you be perfect not in your own strength?

4.I agree completely with the conclusion, that victory comes by beholding Christ.  Not only victory, but peace.

[JoeMo]

3.Regarding perfection, why do you put in the limitation of "in my own strength."  Could you be perfect not in your own strength?

 

I'm not answering for Rachel; but for myself. No - In my experience it has been impossible to even come close to being perfect in my own strength.  Why?  Because I am broken in many ways - some ways from as early as I can remember.  I'm my previous life, I added to my brokeness. Regardless of my repentance (literally - changing my mind) about the sinfulness of some things, I have a history of habits that I no longer find "OK".  Yet, sometimes I find myself still falling into old patterns.  It may be because I am weak; or it may be a thorn in my side to prevent me from thinking that I have "arrived".   I must rely on Christ's forgiveness for justification and His power given to me to overcome as my sanctification.  I am convinced that I cannot do this on my own.  Without the free gift of eternal life, forgiveness,  and the grace to overcome, I am doomed.  I cannot be perfect in my own strength.  Can you?

[pnattmbtc]

I'm not answering for Rachel; but for myself. No - In my experience it has been impossible to even come close to being perfect in my own strength.  Why?  Because I am broken in many ways - some ways from as early as I can remember.  I'm my previous life, I added to my brokeness. Regardless of my repentance (literally - changing my mind) about the sinfulness of some things, I have a history of habits that I no longer find "OK".  Yet, sometimes I find myself still falling into old patterns.  It may be because I am weak; or it may be a thorn in my side to prevent me from thinking that I have "arrived".   I must rely on Christ's forgiveness for justification and His power given to me to overcome as my sanctification.  I am convinced that I cannot do this on my own.  Without the free gift of eternal life, forgiveness,  and the grace to overcome, I am doomed.  I cannot be perfect in my own strength.  Can you?

I think the whole subject is looked at the wrong way.  The best books I've read on the subject are by Robert Wieland.  There's too much to cover in a post, but I'll say a couple of quick things.  One is, it's not something I worry about.  I concern myself with trying to understand who God is, as revealed by Jesus Christ, to fall in love with Him and that image.  I believe our focus should be directed in this way, to understand what the message of Christ was really about, and allow ourselves and our lives to be impacted by that.

Another quick thing is that (and Wieland explains this at length) that the message and the work is a corporate work, not an individual work.  It's not about 144,000 individuals running around, as if there were 144,000 Christs, but that there be a body, a bride of Christ, which is mature, fully functional, and responds to the wishes and desires of the groom.

[JoeMo]

Another quick thing is that (and Wieland explains this at length) that the message and the work is a corporate work, not an individual work.  It's not about 144,000 individuals running around, as if there were 144,000 Christs, but that there be a body, a bride of Christ, which is mature, fully functional, and responds to the wishes and desires of the groom.

I agree that the worldwide work (or national work; or community-wide work) is indeed corporate.  But how can the corporate work get done if individuals dont unite and work together?

I think the Holy Spirit can finish the work with or without us.  That's why the very rocks will cry out if we don't.

[pnattmbtc]

I agree that the worldwide work (or national work; or community-wide work) is indeed corporate.  But how can the corporate work get done if individuals dont unite and work together?

I think the Holy Spirit can finish the work with or without us.  That's why the very rocks will cry out if we don't.

Unfortunately(?) I think God has chosen to be dependent upon us.  We haven't been very cooperative so far, but some generation will be.  I see some good signs, so there are some promising developments, but of course only God knows what's really going on. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

1.Given that all have thoughts and actions that we are not completely aware of, must it be the case that all humans and all times will always have such thoughts and actions?  Is it possible that God could make known such thoughts and actions?  Given that God could do this, is this something God would want to do?

I think these are important questions to consider.  If there is to be a generation which stands before a holy God without a mediator (in context, this mediation means ministering for the forgiveness of sins), what is the purpose involved?

2.You write, "that "unconscious" sin is "covered" by the blood of Jesus."  What does this mean?  From a healing standpoint, does this sentence make sense?  Actually, I can see a way that it does, but am curious as to what you meant by it.

3.Regarding perfection, why do you put in the limitation of "in my own strength."  Could you be perfect not in your own strength?

4.I agree completely with the conclusion, that victory comes by beholding Christ.  Not only victory, but peace.

You're asking if it is POSSIBLE to become "perfect" in thought and action.  I believe it is possible.

I'm asking if it is NECESSARY before one can be "saved".  I say "no". 

Living without One who makes atonement for us.  That ROLE - of making atonement, was only ONE was the roles of a priest.  So we are here focused upon that ROLE. 

The word "atonement" means "reconciliation".  Jesus makes reconciliation for us.  We are reconciled to God, thru Him (when we see His love for us). 

When we come to Jesus, and Jesus then makes atonement for us, are we 100% reconciled to God, at that moment??  I say, "yes".  We WANT to serve Him.  We love Him.  Our hearts are longing for Him.  Does that mean we are literally "changed" in that moment so that we never "sin" again, in thought or action.  No.  Everyone here would agree that we continue to strive against temptations. 

I remember the three steps in the salvation process.  Justification - Sanctification - Glorification

When one is justified by faith in Jesus - one is at that moment standing in a "saved" condition.  Right?  If he were to die 1 minute later, he would be resurrected to everlasting life.

Sanctification is the process by which Jesus heals and restores the human being to the likeness of Himself - to the likeness of His character.

Must one COMPLETE the sanctification process, in order to be "saved"?  I say, "No!"

Must all of those living on the earth just before Jesus returns COMPLETE their sanctification process, in order to be "saved"?  Again, "No!"

Will Jesus say, "Times up. You're not perfect yet, so you're lost".  I don't believe that. 

 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

SDA teaching says that Jesus will finish His work in the MHP (which began back in 1844).   He will stop "mediating" (pleading forgiveness from His Father). After this - there will be a period of time between this cessation of mediation, and His return in glory.  During this time period, those on earth who believe in Jesus MUST NOT SIN, because - should they sin, they would be "lost" because those sins cannot be "forgiven".  They call this, living "in the sight of a holy God without a mediator". 

I do not believe there will be any such time period. 

Jesus will continue to "mediate" for His people right up to the moment that He translates/resurrects and glorifies them.

The point I keep trying to make here, is that "probation" for those on this earth, will close WHEN the High Priest enters the MHP of heaven.  This is the Daniel 7:9-10 "court" scene.  This did NOT HAPPEN back in 1844.  This will happen on the last DAY of this age - the future Day of Atonement.  On this DAY the redeemed will be "glorified" and the scapegoat will be banished to the uninhabited place. 

There is no "time" period (before the final DAY of Atonement) during which Jesus stops "mediating".  He will continue mediating right up to the DAY when He will resurrect/translate His redeemed people. 

This thread has been turned into a discussion of "perfection", and the necessity or possibility of it.  My belief - is that THERE IS NO SUCH TIME PERIOD. 

[Samie]

SDA teaching says that Jesus will finish His work in the MHP (which began back in 1844).   He will stop "mediating" (pleading forgiveness from His Father). After this - there will be a period of time between this cessation of mediation, and His return in glory.  During this time period, those on earth who believe in Jesus MUST NOT SIN, because - should they sin, they would be "lost" because those sins cannot be "forgiven".  They call this, living "in the sight of a holy God without a mediator". 

I do not believe there will be any such time period.

I agree.  There will be no such time period.

The point I keep trying to make here, is that "probation" for those on this earth, will close WHEN the High Priest enters the MHP of heaven.  This is the Daniel 7:9-10 "court" scene.  This did NOT HAPPEN back in 1844.  This will happen on the last DAY of this age - the future Day of Atonement.  On this DAY the redeemed will be "glorified" and the scapegoat will be banished to the uninhabited place.

I think, I disagree. I believe the Day of Atonement found its fulfillment on the cross.  The Bible says that on the day of atonement people are cleansed from all sins:

^NAS Leviticus 16:30 for it is on this day that ¹atonement shall be made for you to ^acleanse you; you shall be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

On the cross, Jesus washed us clean from sin in His blood:

^KJV Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

He is the Supreme Sacrifice for sin: He is the High Priest Who offered the supreme sacrifice for sin: He is the Scapegoat that carried our sins to the grave, where no living inhabits.  The annual Yum Kippur of the old covenant found its fulfillment in the New Covenant on the day our Savior died.