Clio Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 A suspicion based on no study or research of what I'm talking about. Apples and grapefruit. You are condemning this truth based on a suspicion, despite my urgings to get the information AND THEN have a discussion regarding whether or not it's biblical. And No, I'm not adding to His perfected, finished work. But again, you have closed your eyes and said the sky is orange based on what you can see through closed eyelids. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 10, 2006 Moderators Posted January 10, 2006 Actually, the blood covenant was conceived in eternity and was first seen after the Fall when God killed an animal and used the skin to cover A & E nakedness. Gerry Quote
Clio Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Yup. It sure was. Heh... Robert really needs to get that book. Gerry? Are you considering reading it? I'm hoping Dave (archireus) will get it. I'm so excited about it! (Can you tell?) I read Trumball's work, and carefully checked all his Biblical support, and wow..... Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
archierieus Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Ask the questions again.... The question was: "What think you of the foregoing?" (referring to the content of the referenced post) Regards, Dave Quote
Clio Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Actually, the blood covenant was conceived in eternity and was first seen after the Fall when God killed an animal and used the skin to cover A & E nakedness. Gerry Ok... I've thought about this some more within the framework of what I've learned. It's distinctly apropo Gerry. One of the gifts given after a blood covenanting is clothing. And in His mercy, Abba instituted a blood covenant by proxy blood, not requiring the blood of A&E at that moment, knowing their lives were going to be cut dreadfully short in the future. Another aspect is that the covenant pointed forward to the shedding of Jesus' blood, the aspect of the covenant and all it conveys, conceived in eternity. Which meant when the blood covenant was entered into with A&E Abba was already drawing them back to Himself as His Children. And He provided for them, as a Father would His children, even though they must then walk out the consequences of their choices. It just gets better and better the more you understand. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Moderators John317 Posted January 10, 2006 Moderators Posted January 10, 2006 People were saved by grace through faith in Old Testament times the same as we are this side of the cross. That is the subject of Romans 4 and Hebrews 11, the faith chapter. The only difference was that in Old Testament times the people looked forward to Christ whereas we look backward in time. But no one, from Adam & onward, has ever been saved except through faith in the Messiah. God never intended for anyone to be saved by obeying law. God gave the law in order that people would realize they are sinners and that they could not obey the law on their own. People filled with the Spirit are the only ones who can obey God's law and even that obedience to the law is not what saves them. From beginning to end, everyone is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 1:17 applies both to those living before and after Jesus' time. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 10, 2006 Moderators Posted January 10, 2006 That is why I say that all the covenants mentioned in the OT, whether the Noahic, Abrahamic, Sinaitic, or the Davidic Covenants, they were ALL covenants of grace when God gave them. It was the Israelites (most of them anyway) that turned the Sinaitic Covenant (OC) into a covenant of works. I can't imagine God giving a covenant based on works, knowing full well that no one could do it. From the moment the plan of salvation was conceived, it has always been based on Grace & will remain based on Grace & received through faith from beginning to the end. Amen!!! Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 10, 2006 Moderators Posted January 10, 2006 I don't know. I have so many books I want to read. What's the title of the book & full name of the author, & publisher, Clio? Gerry Quote
Robert Posted January 10, 2006 Author Posted January 10, 2006 This whole thing sounds complicated. Besides it is not a salvation issue! The gospel is what mankind needs to receive by faith. Rob Quote
Robert Posted January 10, 2006 Author Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: I can't imagine God giving a covenant based on works, knowing full well that no one could do it. God knew, they didn't know....Hence He gave the law so that mankind might realize that "there is none righteous, no, not one." Yet mankind is proud, so he doesn't like to admit to this fact. So he covers himself with the robes of his own righteousness. Rob Quote
archierieus Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: I can't imagine God giving a covenant based on works, knowing full well that no one could do it. God knew, they didn't know....Hence He gave the law so that mankind might realize that "there is none righteous, no, not one." Yet mankind is proud, so he doesn't like to admit to this fact. So he covers himself with the robes of his own righteousness. Rob Ahh but, what was the subject (res) of the OC? Salvation? No. The offer and conditional promise which God made, was not stated to be salvation. Indeed, Paul points out in Romans that he is not a Jew, who is one according to the flesh, but according to the spirit, in the heart. What, then, was the offer which God made? Look at Ex. 19:5,6: "'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'" Indeed, the conditional offer, and the promise, was to be God's 'special' people, His chosen people, according to the flesh. Salvation was then, and is now, not according to the flesh, nor of any race, kindred, tongue or nation. The LITERAL nation of Israel was to be an object lesson to the surrounding nations, of the blessings of obedience to God. That was a separate issue from personal salvation. Nor was salvation offered to the Jews AS A NATION. Then, as now, each person must stand alone before God. Regards, Dave Quote
Robert Posted January 10, 2006 Author Posted January 10, 2006 Context: Chapter 19:4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”... Chapter 20:1 And God spoke all these words: 2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before me.....24:3 When Moses went and told the people all the LORD’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the LORD has said we will do. Quote
archierieus Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Precisely. That IS the context--this covenant pertains to the special status of Israel "according to the flesh" as God's favored nation. THAT was the subject of God's offer in Ex. 19:3 - 7. As John 317 pointed out, the terms which God has offered by which individuals may become parties to the conditional covenant of 'salvation',--the 'everlasting covenant' if you please--have ALWAYS been the same. Salvation has ALWAYS been based on God's grace accepted and received through faith, whether before the cross or after. Regards, Dave Quote
Clio Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Robert... The Blood Covenant IS salvation. It's the "HOW" and what Jesus did is the execution, the walking out of the "HOW". It's not that complicated when you do the research. It's a whole lot less complicated than trying to metaphysically understand how in One all died. The Blood Covenant, a covenant of Grace alone, is HOW. Be brave, read the book. It's Blood Covenant by H. Clay Trumball. Archierieus said you can get it on Amazon. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Clio Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Gerry - Here it is. The Blood Covenant by H. Clay Trumball. It was written in 1885. I don't know for sure who the publisher is. My copy is a 1975 edition and is by Impact Books. It is available on Amazon.com. Here's my quote from the book, page 287, which speaks directly to what you said earlier about OT Covenants. "It is the same in the New Covenant as it was in the Old. Atonement, salvation, rescue, redemption is by the blood, the life, of Christ; not by His death as such;not by His broken body in itself; but by that blood which was given at the inevitabl cost of His broken body and of His death. The figure of leprosy and its attempted cure by blood may tend to make this truth clearer. In the leper, the very blood itself - the life - was death smitten. The only hope of a cure was by purging out the old blood, by means of an inflowing current of new blood - which was new life. To give this blood, the giver himself must die; but it was his blood, his life, not his death which was to be the means of a cure. So, also, with the sin-leprous nature. The old life must be purged out, by the incoming of a new life; such a life as only the Son of God can supply. In order to supply that blood, its Giver must Himself die, and so be a sharer of the punishment of sin, although He was Himself without sin. Thus was the new life made possible to all, by faith. So it is that "we have redemption through His Blood" 1 John 1:7 So it is that he "loosed us (freed us) from our sins by His [cleansing, re-vivifying] blood Revelation 1:5. So it is that "if any man is in Christ [is one nature with christ, through sharing by faith, the blood of Christ] he is a new creature; the old things are passed away; behold they are become new. 2 Corinthian 5:17 So it is also, that it can be said of those whose old lives were purged away by the inflowing redeeming life of Christ: Ye died and your life is hid with Christ in God. Colossians 3:3 And this is the True God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20" Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Robert Posted January 10, 2006 Author Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: Precisely. That IS the context--this covenant pertains to the special status of Israel "according to the flesh" as God's favored nation. THAT was the subject of God's offer in Ex. 19:3 - 7. No...all men are born under the old covenant! Israel was just an example! Quote
Robert Posted January 10, 2006 Author Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: Clio said: It's not that complicated when you do the research. If it's not complicated you should be able to explain it to me.... Quote: It's a whole lot less complicated than trying to metaphysically understand how in One all died. It's simple: From where did you receive your sinful life? 1] Mother 2] God 3] Adam Answer: 3 When did God make your life? 1] When you were born 2] When God made Adam Answer: 2 What life did Christ as God assume from Mary's womb? 1] The fallen life all humanity shares -- Adam's 2] The life of Adam before the fall Answer: 1 Since the life you share comes from Adam and since Christ assumed that fallen life, your life came to an end when Christ as mankind died. The life you have now is from your Father Adam. Hence you must accept "the truth as it is 'in Christ'" by faith. That's the gospel...and it must be accepted!!! Quote
archierieus Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: Robert said: No...all men are born under the old covenant! Israel was just an example! That is Scripturally impossible. The OC is recorded in Ex. 19:3 - 8. The covenanting parties are identified. (Although, it is more in the nature of a treaty initiated by a sovereign, but still, a covenant) The offer to enter into the covenant was ONLY made to literal Israel, at that time. What all men are born under is something different. There is no covenant, indeed can be no covenant, because there is neither offer, promissory obligation, acceptance, or any reality of consent. There simply is no covenant. A covenant by definition is an agreement or treaty made between the covenanting parties, consisting of an offer, a described subject, an acceptance freely given, supported by valuable consideration. The contracting parties must also be identified. God has not entered into any covenant relationship with those who have not accepted Him as Lord. If you assert otherwise, then please provide a cite to a Scriptural passage which contains the elements of a covenant between God and non-believers. Regards, Dave Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 11, 2006 Moderators Posted January 11, 2006 You might want to check again the Noahic Covenant (Gen 9), the sign of which is the rainbow. While a covenant is technically an agreement between two parties, the promise not to destroy the earth again with a flood is a unilateral covenant imposed on Noah's descendants, believer & unbeliever alike. Gerry Quote
Clio Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Robert, Not complicated is not the same as a small amount. You don't understand covenants and it's apparent you're not willing to learn. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Robert Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 Quote: Robert said: From where did you receive your sinful life? Acts 17:26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth... Quote: When did God make your life? Ps 139:15 My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth....Compare to Gen. 2:7 Quote: What life did Christ as God assume from Mary's womb? Rom 6:6 our old self was crucified with Him Rom 7:4 you also were made to die to the Law in the body of Christ Quote
Robert Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 Quote: archierieus said: That is Scripturally impossible. You can't see the forest for the trees.... Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law... Romans 3:9 Now we know [our maybe we don't] that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 2:12 all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law Quote
Robert Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 Quote: Clio said: You don't understand covenants and it's apparent you're not willing to learn. Clio Nope...I do! The OC was the promise of mankind to obey God's law in return for life. The NC was the promise of God to fulfill the law "in Christ" and reckon us righteous by faith. Quote
archierieus Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: You might want to check again the Noahic Covenant (Gen 9), the sign of which is the rainbow. While a covenant is technically an agreement between two parties, the promise not to destroy the earth again with a flood is a unilateral covenant imposed on Noah's descendants, believer & unbeliever alike. Interesting point. I did a little research, and will include in this post an excerpt from the article in NIDOTTE on the Noahic Covenant. Whatever the case may be, that is the Noahic Covenant, and is not what is generally referred to as the "Old Covenant" between God and Israel--nor does it pertain to either salvation or condemnation for anyone. Here is the excerpt from NIDOTTE. I know it is long, but it would seem to be on point, and there is no way to simply provide a web link. Regards, Dave "The Noahic covenant. The OT contains a developing story of God's covenants with his chosen people (bachar1, choose, H1047). The first occurrence of the idea is at Gen 6:18, where God promises to establish (heqim) his covenant with Noah (—> ). This he does after the Flood (9:8-17), and the covenant consists of a promise (vv. 9-11) and a sign (v. 13). When Gen 8:22- 9:7 is taken as a prelude to the covenantal promise of 9:8-17, the latter has clear verbal connections with the story of creation, especially as in Gen 1 (cf. 9:1 and 1:28; 9:2-3 and 1:29; 9:10 and 1:20-25). The question arises, therefore, whether the relationship between God and humanity at creation should be read as covenantal, even though the specific terminology of covenant is absent. A plausible exegetical case for creation as covenantal has been made by W. J. Dumbrell, partly on the grounds of the phrase "establish my covenant" in Gen 6:18. The use of the vb. heqim in that place, instead of the more usual vb. for initiating a covenant (karat [H4162]; cf. Gen 15:18; 21:27, 32; Exod 23:32, etc.), suggests the reestablishment of something already in place, namely "a divine relationship established by the fact of creation itself" (Dumbrell, 32). (For other uses of heqim, see Gen 17:7, 21; Exod 6:4; Deut 8:18; etc.) The use of heqim rather than karat, therefore, has nothing to do with alleged differences of source (and consequently style), but arises from the fact that the covenant referred to in Gen 6:18 is not initiated there (Dumbrell, 20-33). Dumbrell then goes on to expound the creation-covenant in terms of kingship, rest, and the covenant demand (Gen 2:16-17; Dumbrell, 33-39). In the same connection, Hos 2:18 [20] should be noticed, where God makes a covenant between Israel and the earth; there the covenantal idea is applied to the establishment of a harmonious relationship between God and humankind in the context of their environment. A further issue arising from the covenant with Noah is whether it is exclusively promissory. Clearly, the element of promise dominates it, yet here too, when Gen 8:22- 9:7 is taken with 9:8-17, the note of command is also present in the prohibition both of murder (vv. 5-6) and of the consumption of blood (v. 4), which is to play an important role in the OT's ritual laws (Lev 17:11) and which is even sustained in the NT (Acts 15:20). In reality, therefore, both promise and command belong within the covenantal thought of Gen 1-11." Quote
Robert Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 Too complicated.... 1 Cor 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.” Case closed.... KISS... Quote
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