Robert Posted January 16, 2006 Author Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: I have used the same brains with the help of the Holy Spirit to arrive at the same spot I'm in now. Gerry So you say.... If you are not partly selfish, in this world under Satan, you will be homeless. That's why Christ was without because, as EGW says, "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly [not partially] given to the service of others.” Can't you see that Gerry? Quote
Robert Posted January 16, 2006 Author Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Robert said: I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin. Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ. Who are you kidding? Rob Hopefully? Read the promises of 1 Jn 3:6-9 & 1 Jn 5:18,19 over & over again. If I interpret these references to mean the promise of sinless living [which they do not] then that presents a problem. You see God doesn't force...He can't for it goes against He very nature. God is love...and love doesn't override the human element. Since none of us know how to perfectly surrender [i.e., have “the faith of Jesus"] then the Spirit's hands are tied. Besides, anyone who perverts the gospel [as you do] is at the mercy of his flesh because the Spirit will not help you to become proud in your works/perfection program. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 16, 2006 Moderators Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: I have used the same brains with the help of the Holy Spirit to arrive at the same spot I'm in now. Gerry So you say.... If you are not partly selfish, in this world under Satan, you will be homeless. That's why Christ was without because, as EGW says, "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly [not partially] given to the service of others.” Can't you see that Gerry? [:"blue"]Until we hear you selling everything you have, I suggest that you not mention homelessness ever again as Christ's goal for His disciples in order to prove that they are free from selfishness. [/] Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 16, 2006 Moderators Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Robert said: I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin. Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ. Who are you kidding? Rob Hopefully? Read the promises of 1 Jn 3:6-9 & 1 Jn 5:18,19 over & over again. If I interpret these references to mean the promise of sinless living [which they do not] [:"blue"]Well then, let's see what these passages. Bear in mind this is not in Greek but English. [:"red"]1 Jn 3:6-10 "No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practicies) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Hom]. Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous. [but] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done]. No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God. By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children; no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow believer in Christ). 1 John 5:18,19 "We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. We know [positively] that we are of God, and the whole world [around us] is under the power of the evil one.] Amp [/] John is very clear. There is no obfuscation here. Those who continue to deliberately & knowingly continue to sin are the devil's children. God's children, by abiding in Him, will not deliberately/knowingly continue sinning but rather will continue in righteous living. [/] Quote: then that presents a problem. [:"blue"]A problem of your own making because you don't believe what it plainly says. [/] Quote: You see God doesn't force...He can't for it goes against He very nature. God is love...and love doesn't override the human element. [:"blue"]What does surrender mean to you? What does being a slave to God mean to you? [/] Quote: Since none of us know how to perfectly surrender [i.e., have “the faith of Jesus"] then the Spirit's hands are tied. Besides, anyone who perverts the gospel [as you do] is at the mercy of his flesh because the Spirit will not help you to become proud in your works/perfection program. [:"blue"]Did Jacob have any doubt about how to surrender when he was overwhelmed wrestling with a superior being? Did Japan & Germany have any foggy ideas about how to surrender after their armies were vanquished & their cities devastated? [/] Gerry Quote
Clio Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Since none of us know how to perfectly surrender [i.e., have “the faith of Jesus"] then the Spirit's hands are tied. Besides, anyone who perverts the gospel [as you do] is at the mercy of his flesh because the Spirit will not help you to become proud in your works/perfection program. These words are not true Robert. What you are really saying is YOU do not know how to surrender. You cannot speak for anyone else. You do not know the Holy Spirit, or you would not say His hands are tied. There is no more free or unfettered being in all the universe. Gerry is not teaching a works/perfection program, and if you understood surrender, you would understand that as well. Gerry is not teaching prideful works. He is attempting to teach you that true surrender brings relief from habitual and deliberate sin. You cannot see it. And that is a sad thing. Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Robert Posted January 17, 2006 Author Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: I have used the same brains with the help of the Holy Spirit to arrive at the same spot I'm in now. Gerry So you say.... If you are not partly selfish, in this world under Satan, you will be homeless. That's why Christ was without because, as EGW says, "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly [not partially] given to the service of others.” Can't you see that Gerry? [:"blue"]Until we hear you selling everything you have, I suggest that you not mention homelessness ever again ..... [/] It's not about selling...it's about "wholly" living for others....The results of selfless living IN THIS WORLD under sin? Well, look at Christ! As to selfless living...Christ said, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” [Matt 19:21] What does selling one's possessions & perfection have to do with "following Christ"? Turn to Matt 8:19: Then a teacher of the law came to him [Jesus] and said, “Master, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” To follow Christ means to live selflessly. The evidence of Christ's selflessness? Homelessness! The evidence of our self-love? Goodies...and then we claim, as did the rich young ruler, God gave me my goodies because I'm good.... I'll take grace because I know I struggle with selfishness. You go ahead and take law, Gerry. Let's see whom makes and who doesn't! Now EGW: “To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him as his disciple, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him [Jesus] [:"red"]must share his poverty.[/] "If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples." [RH 7-4-1912] Bottom line? I am sick and tired of your constant ranting..."we must keep the law or else!" Christ is your example of selfless living….If you wish to walk in His sinless shoes [as you profess] then you must share in His poverty! That’s the result of wholly living for others instead of your own selfish, coveting self.... Quote
Robert Posted January 17, 2006 Author Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Clio said: These words ["none of us know how to perfectly surrender...i.e., have “the faith of Jesus"] are not true Robert. Faith in Jesus is not the same as "the faith of Jesus"! If you lived Christ's life there wouldn't be a hint of selfishness? Are you free of all selfishness? Please consider 1 John 1:8 Quote: What you are really saying is YOU do not know how to surrender. I am saying none of us, and that means YOU also, doesn't know how to perfectly surrender....If we did we would be sinless! Are you claiming perfection? Quote: You cannot speak for anyone else. But the Bible can: "There is NONE righteous, no, not even one." Quote: You do not know the Holy Spirit, or you would not say His hands are tied. His hands are tied because He cannot and will not force holy living on anyone! His work in us is always incomplete because of the human element! So the fault lies with us because we do not have the faith of Jesus. Quote: Gerry is not teaching a works/perfection program, and if you understood surrender, you would understand that as well. In my estimation [only God knows] Gerry is a wolf in sheep's clothing.....He teaches a perverted gospel....He teaches heresy.... Quote: He is attempting to teach you that true surrender brings relief from habitual and deliberate sin. Gerry is attempting to make heaven conditioned by obedience when he himself is a selfish man like the rest of us. Who are you kidding? Gerry needs the gospel to humble him.... Quote: You cannot see it. And that is a sad thing. The blind leading the blind??? Quote
Robert Posted January 17, 2006 Author Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: "No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practicies) sin. I like your additions! A known, practiced sin is one the believer refuses to repent of....We all sin deliberately, not because we want to, but because we fail to fully surrender due to the weakness of our flesh. Besetting sins are habitual....We even knowingly sin....Who in the world are you kidding, Gerry? Remember God can read your heart...so please be honest.....Our flesh gets the best of us....What we do when we return to our senses is what makes the difference! Nevertheless we grow in grace.... Quote
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Hi Rob, I had to comment on this. Quote: Since none of us know how to perfectly surrender [i.e., have “the faith of Jesus"] then the Spirit's hands are tied. Rob I had written a reply to this but just erased it all there's no point. I just feel really bad for you at this point. Where did you ever get such thinking? Your need is to leave theory aside and experience the love of God. Seriously, don't take this as an insult or a jab. To write what you just did reveals that you don't know Jesus nor do you understand the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm sorry if this offends you it's not my intention but I have to tell you this. My heart is saddened really saddened, Rob Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Clio Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Norman said: Hi Rob, I had to comment on this. Quote: Since none of us know how to perfectly surrender [i.e., have “the faith of Jesus"] then the Spirit's hands are tied. Rob I had written a reply to this but just erased it all there's no point. I just feel really bad for you at this point. Where did you ever get such thinking? Your need is to leave theory aside and experience the love of God. Seriously, don't take this as an insult or a jab. To write what you just did reveals that you don't know Jesus nor do you understand the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm sorry if this offends you it's not my intention but I have to tell you this. My heart is saddened really saddened, Rob Norman Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Robert Posted January 17, 2006 Author Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Norman said: ...I just feel really bad for you at this point. Where did you ever get such thinking....My heart is saddened really saddened... Quote: Clio said: This is a very self-righteous attitude! In other words, “We who are righteous, feel sorry for you Rob. We know how to fully surrender and hence we are living Christ’s life. Poor Rob…that poor sinner.” To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector [Rob]. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ [i also know how to perfectly surrender and therefore I am perfect, as God is perfect.] “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” Quote
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Hi Rob, Quote: This is a very self-righteous attitude! In other words, “We who are righteous, feel sorry for you Rob. We know how to fully surrender and hence we are living Christ’s life. Poor Rob…that poor sinner.” This further reveals your lack of understanding. This was not my attitude at all. It's more like a fellow laborer a brother whom I love in Christ has lost his way. I can't sit by and say nothing. I am not comparing myself to you and thinking that I am better just as I hope you are not because I don't see things your way. The sadness comes from seeing you accept that the Holy Spirit basically is of no use to us because, "we are too messed up or weak" (I don't remember your exact words) The Bible tells us that we can have victory now if we will have it. Joh 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. My hope is that you will see the potential awavilable to all and rejoice is this gift. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Clio Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Norman said: ...I just feel really bad for you at this point. Where did you ever get such thinking....My heart is saddened really saddened... Quote: Clio said: This is a very self-righteous attitude! In other words, “We who are righteous, feel sorry for you Rob. We know how to fully surrender and hence we are living Christ’s life. Poor Rob…that poor sinner.” To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector [Rob]. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ [i also know how to perfectly surrender and therefore I am perfect, as God is perfect.] “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” No Rob. And I have never said that or implied it. I have no righteousness of my own, it's all Jesus. I just feel so sorry that you can't see it. Please listen to Norman and Gerry. They say it much better than I can. The Spirit is heavy on their words. I really wish you would take a chance and read The Blood Covenant. And then compare it to the Bible. With your head-knowledge you would surely have wonderful insight to impart to all of us. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 17, 2006 Moderators Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: To follow Christ means to live selflessly. The evidence of Christ's selflessness? Homelessness! [:"blue"]OK, Rob, have it your way. Since you claim to be a follower of Christ, let's see you set the example of following your own theology - sell your home!!! Uh, sorry I forgot, that according to your theology also, what you do has nothing to do with what you believe. [/] Quote: The evidence of our self-love? Goodies...and then we claim, as did the rich young ruler, God gave me my goodies because I'm good.... [:"blue"]"Seek first the kingdom of God, and all these goodies will be added to you." [/] Quote: I'll take grace because I know I struggle with selfishness. You go ahead and take law, Gerry. Let's see whom makes and who doesn't! [:"blue"]And grace is an excuse for selfishness? [/] Quote: Bottom line? I am sick and tired of your constant ranting..."we must keep the law or else!" [:"blue"]"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 17, 2006 Moderators Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: "No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practicies) sin. I like your additions! [:"blue"]My additions? I quoted from the Amplified version. [/] Quote: A known, practiced sin is one the believer refuses to repent of.... [:"blue"]Let me ask you again, what does repentance mean to you? Is it saying "I'm sorry" but keep on doing the same thing over & over again? And what does turning from sin and turning to God mean to you? [/] Quote: We all sin deliberately, not because we want to, but because we fail to fully surrender due to the weakness of our flesh. [:"blue"]"Those who have been born into God's family do not sin, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they have been born of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the Devil. Anyone who does not obey God's commands and does not love other Christians does not belong to God." 1 Jn 3:9,10 NLT [/] Quote: Besetting sins are habitual.... [:"blue"] Let me repeat how Webster defines "besetting" again, since it didn't sink in the first time. Beset - to attack from all sides; harass or besiege; to surround or hem in. Besetting - adj. constantly harassing or attacking [a besetting temptation]. Notice that it is the harassing, the attacking, the besieging that is habitual, not the yielding to it. [/] Quote: We even knowingly sin....Who in the world are you kidding, Gerry? Remember God can read your heart...so please be honest.....Our flesh gets the best of us....What we do when we return to our senses is what makes the difference! [:"blue"]"We know that those who have become part of God's family do not make a practice of sinning, for God's Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot get his hands on them." 1 Jn 5:18 NLT [/] Quote: Nevertheless we grow in grace.... [:"blue"]Tell me, how can someone who is habitually comitting the same sins over & over & over again be growing in grace? "As we know Jesus better, his divine power gives us everything we need for living a godly life. He has called us to receive his own glory and goodness! And by that same mighty power, he has given us all of his rich and wonderful promises. He has promised that you will escape the decadence all around you caused by evil desires and that you will share in his divine nature. So make every effort to apply the benefits of these promises to your life. Then your faith will produce a life of moral excellence. A life of moral excellence leads to knowing God better. Knowing God leads to self-control. Self-control leads to patient endurance, and patient endurance leads to godliness. Godliness leads to love for other Christians, and finally you will grow to have genuine love for everyone. The more you grow like this, the more you will become productive and useful in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But those who fail to develop these virtues are blind or, at least, very shortsighted. They have already forgotten that God has cleansed them from their old life of sin." 2 Pe 1:3-9 NLT [/] Gerry Quote
Robert Posted January 18, 2006 Author Posted January 18, 2006 Quote: Norman said: The sadness comes from seeing you accept that the Holy Spirit basically is of no use to us because, "we are too messed up or weak" (I don't remember your exact words) "I don't remember your exact words" Then you should read my posts more carefully! Quote
Robert Posted January 18, 2006 Author Posted January 18, 2006 Quote: Please listen to Norman and Gerry. Norman should know better...Gerry is a die-hard legalist! Quote
Robert Posted January 18, 2006 Author Posted January 18, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Bottom line? I am sick and tired of your constant ranting..."we must keep the law or else!" [:"blue"][Gerry]"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." I don't see "or else"! Here's the context: Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. 15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The "command" here is to "believe"! Look at the context.... Quote
Clio Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Please listen to Norman and Gerry. Norman should know better...Gerry is a die-hard legalist! NO, He's not. He exhibits a clear understanding of grace, and the responsibilities of a Child in the House of the King, redeemed by the Blood, through faith and grace. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Robert Posted January 18, 2006 Author Posted January 18, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Notice that it is the harassing, the attacking, the besieging that is habitual, not the yielding to it. What did EGW state? "Besettings sins TO OVERCOME." If one is not yielding to sin, then one has nothing to overcome. You need to get out more.... Quote
Robert Posted January 18, 2006 Author Posted January 18, 2006 Post deleted by Gregory Matthews [i have deleted this post as it could be understood to make a direct attack on another person simply by quoting Scripture. Cool it--Gregory Matthews.] Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted January 18, 2006 Moderators Posted January 18, 2006 I have also deleted a second post. The author of that post deleted the full comment that the author had made in this post. The author then left only a quotation from the post above which I deleted for the reason stated. As I had deleted that, I then deleted this quotation--GRegory Matthews. Quote Gregory
Moderators Gerr Posted January 18, 2006 Moderators Posted January 18, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Notice that it is the harassing, the attacking, the besieging that is habitual, not the yielding to it. What did EGW state? "Besettings sins TO OVERCOME." If one is not yielding to sin, then one has nothing to overcome. You need to get out more.... [:"blue"] Does the statement mean I'll never get to the point where I can overcome the besetting sin? Look at your statement, "You need to get out more." I leave the house at 8 a.m. & come home at 5 p.m. or soon after. If I leave at 6 am & come home at 8 pm & then read you statement, "You need to get out more", it will still say the same thing. Suppose then, that I get out of the house at 3 am & come home at 12 midnight, will your statement tell me differently? If I got out of the house & stayed out 24 hrs, will it read differently? [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 18, 2006 Moderators Posted January 18, 2006 And what does belief/faith in Christ mean to you? "This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men." Mt 15:8,9 NASB. "Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus." Rev 14:12 NASB. Gerry Quote
Pockey Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Nicodema said: Interesting parallel passages here: "By grace are ye saved, through faith ..." "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." So apparently, the word leads to faith which is the means by which we take hold of grace. It's interesting also that the first verse I quoted continues, "and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." So then faith itself is a GIFT from God, and this gift comes by hearing THE WORD, and this leads to receiving the GRACE which SAVES us. That's how I see those verses fitting together anyway. Any thoughts? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I love that verse! So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17. I believe that this verse is telling us how to increase our faith. By reading the word of G-d, we will gain faith and our faith will increase. Quote
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