Not Under Law – Under Grace

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Case closed....

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I assume, then, that you have given up on the assertions which you made earlier on this thread.

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born

under the law

, 5

to redeem those who were under the law

...

Romans 3:9 Now we know [our maybe we don't] that whatever

the Law says

, it speaks to those

who are under the Law

, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 2:12

all

who have sinned

under the Law

will be judged by the Law

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You seem to be confusing a couple of concepts. Paul, in Romans 1,2 and 3, establishes that all the world stands condemned. Firstly, he mentions the Gentiles who, even though they were not given the Law as the Jews were, still had the evidence of nature and their own consciences. Then, Paul speaks of the Jews, who had the Law, but disobeyed. Thus, all, Jew and Gentile, stand condemned by the moral law of God. That is quite a separate issue from the question of covenants. Paul makes no suggestion that the Gentiles were parties to the covenant that God made with Israel. Instead, he specifically distinguishes between Jews, who were covenanting parties, and Gentiles, who were not. In fact, several of the passages you quoted contain a portion of his argument to that effect. If would have been good if you had also included the rest of his argument, pertaining to those who were not bound by the terms of the covenant between God and the Jews. The issue here is the moral Law of God as a universal rule of right and wrong, for all peoples throughout history, including His covenant people at the time, the Jews.

Regards, Dave

[Robert]

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Thus, all, Jew and Gentile, stand condemned by the moral law of God. That is quite a separate issue from the question of covenants

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Here's the OC in a nutshell:

Deut 4:13 “So He [God] declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, [:"red"]that is, the Ten Commandments[/]."

Deut 27:26 "Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them. And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’"

Paul does not define this "covenant" only to the Jews:

Gal 3:10 Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall by them live.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”....23 Now before faith came, we [believers] were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian.

Romans 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

The Gentiles didn't have the law, yet those who reject the God of nature will "perish" because they will be condemned by that law. Why? Because both Jew and Gentile must be "doers of the law" in order to be justified before it.

That's Old Covenant!

Rob

[Gerr]

The 10c are not Old Covenant!!! They are eternal principles!!! The terms of the OC & the NC are exactly the same, i.e. the Law of God, the 10c!!!

So where is the difference? As I said before, it's in the HOW it is obeyed. In the Sinaitic Covenant (OC), the Israelites tried to establish righteousness on their on by obeying the letter, Rom 10:3, whereas in the NC, the believer in whose heart the law is written by the Spirit, obeys it by faith through the power of the indwelling Spirit, Heb 8 & 10, Rom 8, Gal 5.

The believer can turn the NC into OC by going back trying to establish his own righteousness by obeying the law by his own power, just like the Galatians did. The Noahic Covenant was a covenant of grace. Ditto the Abrahamic Covenant. I can't help but believe that the Sinaitic Covenant was a covenant of grace. Unfortunately, the Israelites turned it into a covenant of works.

Nowhere in Scripture is a blessing ever pronounced for breaking the law, whether by unbelievers or believers. To believers & unbelievers alike is the dictum: "the wages of sin is death," Rom 6:23 in the NT, and "the soul that sins shall die," Ez 18:4 in the OT.

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

The 10c are not Old Covenant!!!

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Funny, did you miss what I just quoted?

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." [Deut 4:13]

Yes...in and of itself the "Ten Commandments" are not the Old Covenant. It is the demands of obedience, in return for life, that constitutes the Old Covenant.

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To believers & unbelievers alike is the dictum: "the wages of sin is death," Rom 6:23 in the NT, and "the soul that sins shall die," Ez 18:4 in the OT.

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And the death penalty has been answered "in Christ"! In fact "you" died to the law in the body of Christ. [see Rom 7:4]

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

It is the demands of obedience, in return for life, that constitutes the Old Covenant.

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No Robert, you still haven't addressed the terms of the OC as stated. It is found in Ex. 19:3 - 8. God's offer is to make Israel His special, chosen people. Obedience is tied to continued possession of the Promised Land. The warning is given (in Deut. 29 I think, for example) that if the people are not obedient, they shall be removed from the Promised Land, and sent into captivity. God also promises that if they repent, He will restore them to the Promised Land. You cannot ignore the plain words of the Old Covenant, as it is stated at the time it was made, and be consistent with either Scripture or fact. Still waiting for your response on the specific issues, (1) of the identity of the covenanting parties and (2) of the covenantal promises and obligations AS SET FORTH AT THE TIME IT WAS MADE.

Regards, Dave

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

The 10c are not Old Covenant!!!

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Funny, did you miss what I just quoted?

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." [Deut 4:13]

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[:"blue"]So, what you are saying is: 10c = OC. OC been done away with, ergo, the 10c have been done away with? [/]

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Yes...in and of itself the "Ten Commandments" are not the Old Covenant. It is the demands of obedience, in return for life, that constitutes the Old Covenant.

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[:"blue"] And the New Covenant does not require obedience? [/]

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To believers & unbelievers alike is the dictum: "the wages of sin is death," Rom 6:23 in the NT, and "the soul that sins shall die," Ez 18:4 in the OT.

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And the death penalty has been answered "in Christ"! In fact "you" died to the law in the body of Christ. [see Rom 7:4]

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[:"blue"]How can you be dead to the law if you are in fact breaking it? Dead people don't/can't break anything!

And are you saying since the death penalty has been paid for by Christ, that there are therefore no consequences to my continueing disobedience? You continue to deny it, but I see no difference between what you are saying from the "once-saved-always-saved" heresy. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

No Robert, you still haven't addressed the terms of the OC as stated.

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No matter how you twist it, the law demands 100% perfect obedience in return for life, period!!!

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So, what you are saying is: 10c = OC. OC been done away with, ergo, the 10c have been done away with?

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No...the OC has been fulfilled by the doing and dying of Christ!

Rom 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things [keeps the rules] by them he will live." But the righteousness that is by faith says:... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.....

[Gerr]

And what does "Christ is the end of law" mean? And so far we have not even discussed what "not under law but under grace" mean.

Does it mean that when an unbelieving sinner who has lived in disregard of the law comes to Christ, the law that tells him not to steal, murder, covet, etc. no longer applies to him? Is that what "end of law" & "not under law" mean?

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So, what you are saying is: 10c = OC. OC been done away with, ergo, the 10c have been done away with?

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No...the OC has been fulfilled by the doing and dying of Christ!

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[:"blue"]And since He fulfilled it, I have nothing more to do with obeying the 10c? [/]

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

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John317 said:

From beginning to end, everyone is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 1:17 applies both to those living before and after Jesus' time. Jim

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I'm with you, Jim.

[:"red"] "Jesus Christ (the Messiah) is [always] the same, yesterday, today, [yes] and forever (to the ages)" [/] Hebrews 13:8 AMP

Keep looking up!

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]And since He fulfilled it, I have nothing more to do with obeying the 10c? [/]

Gerry

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I'm glad you put that as a question, Gerry, for that allows me to answer with an affirmative based on two Scriptures revealing that what I have to do with the ten commandments is a matter of submission/yielding to the enabling power of the Holy Spirit as Jesus is invited into the life. The statement, [:"blue"] 'have nothing to do with' [/]is actually too strong a statement if we accept the position as members of the body of Christ, who would perish were it not for the Head of the body.

[:"red"] "Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight." [/] Philippians 2:12-14 AMP

[:"red"] "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [/] Galatians 2:20 KJV

[:"red"] "I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing." [/] John 15: AMP

[:"red"] " If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. " [/] John 14:15 NASB

And that's a promise!

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So, what you are saying is: 10c = OC. OC been done away with, ergo, the 10c have been done away with?

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No...the OC has been fulfilled by the doing and dying of Christ!

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[:"blue"]And since He fulfilled it, I have nothing more to do with obeying the 10c? [/]

Gerry

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Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

[Gerr]

LHC, I'm a bit puzzled. In answer to the question, "And since He fulfilled it, I have nothing more todo with obeying the 10c?", to which you answered in the affirmative, and then you quote Jn 14:15 which says, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

Phil 2:12 as I understand it is God working in me is what enables me to will & to do what pleases Him.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So, what you are saying is: 10c = OC. OC been done away with, ergo, the 10c have been done away with?

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No...the OC has been fulfilled by the doing and dying of Christ!

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[:"blue"]And since He fulfilled it, I have nothing more to do with obeying the 10c? [/]

Gerry

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Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

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[:"blue"]Then you are putting me & every believer in an impossible situation. If I continue in the works of the flesh such as adultery, hatred, jealousies, idolatry, murder, drunkenness, etc, Paul says in no uncertain terms that I cannot inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5:19-21). And yet if I obey what the law says even if through the power of the indwelling Spirit, you claim that I am therefore trying to be justified by works of the law and therefore severed from Christ. Lost if I obey, and lost if I don't!!!!!!!!!!

Sooooooo, let's eat & drink, indulge everything the flesh craves, then tomorrow we'll do the same thing again. We're lost anyway?

[/]

Gerry

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

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[:"blue"]Then you are putting me & every believer in an impossible situation. If I continue in the works of the flesh such as adultery, hatred, jealousies, idolatry, murder, drunkenness, etc, Paul says in no uncertain terms that I cannot inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5:19-21). And yet if I obey what the law says even if through the power of the indwelling Spirit, you claim that I am therefore trying to be justified by works of the law and therefore severed from Christ. Lost if I obey, and lost if I don't!!!!!!!!!!

Sooooooo, let's eat & drink, indulge everything the flesh craves, then tomorrow we'll do the same thing again. We're lost anyway?

[/]

Gerry

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Ha! One can easily get lost in the backquotes! Okay, we're talking about apples and oranges. The "apples" would be the idea of being 'justified.' The "oranges" would be living a righteous life, in conformity with what the TC describes.

Come now . . . surely all of us on this thread are aware of the meaning of 'justified,'correct? As I understand the word, it means 'acquitted.' So, then, we cannot possibly be acquitted on the basis of our obedience to God's Law, because we have broken that Law.

However, those who walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh, will be living in harmony with God's Law. There is a transformation of the nature. We are saved because we are complete in Christ. Jesus lives His life in us, and He kept His Father's Law. Since He is in us, we are being changed into conformity with His Father's law, and we now choose to do right. We cannot expect to go to heaven if we continue choosing to do wrong! Common sense.

Regards, Dave

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

LHC, I'm a bit puzzled. In answer to the question, "And since He fulfilled it, I have nothing more todo with obeying the 10c?", to which you answered in the affirmative, and then you quote Jn 14:15 which says, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

Phil 2:12 as I understand it is God working in me is what enables me to will & to do what pleases Him.Gerry

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The way that was put I thought there might be some confusion. The scriptures following were meant to reveal that were God (Jesus) absent from our lives we would be as lifeless as the lump of clay from which we came. Enabling power is but an extension of the life of Christ, as we can discern in the references to the "body of Christ".

[:"red"] "But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you]. " [/] Romans 8:10 AMP

[:"red"] "We are all infected and impure with sin. When we proudly display our righteous deeds, we find they are but filthy rags." [/] Isaiah 64:6 NLT

Blessings!

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

As I understand the word, it means 'acquitted.' So, then, we cannot possibly be acquitted on the basis of our obedience to God's Law, because we have broken that Law.

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This is typical Madventism....We can't "acquit" ourselves because we have broken the law, BUT after our initial justification, we must through Sanctification keep the law. This is nothing less than a subtle form of legalism.

Turn to Romans 3:21:

• But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;

Why "apart from the law" and by "faith"?

• for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

In other words all have sinned corporately in Adam [implied, see Rom. 5.12], and are individually coming short continually of God’s ideal of living a life of selfless love.

• 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Please notice that "justification" is not a one-time deal.

• 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

We are "being justified" through faith....The moment one hardens his heart that moment he becomes unjustified. That's why the Bible warns the believer never to give up his faith.

• This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God offered up His Son as our sin bearer to satisfy the justice of the law so that now He has a legal right to forgive us of our sins [Heb. 9:22]. You see, before the cross event, God could only forgive sins through His kindness. Because all mankind was included in Christ’s death [2 Cor. 5:14], God is perfectly just in declaring us sinners righteous, that is, all who by faith have accepted this union with Christ Jesus.

• 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [:"red"]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.[/]

The fact of the matter is that a person is justified through faith alone and none of his law-keeping contributes to that right standing with God.

• 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

In other words does this mean that the truth of righteousness or justification by faith does away with or bypasses the law? Not at all! God’s way of saving us in Christ fully meets all the law’s requirements on our behalf—both its positive demands as well as its justice, for in Christ’s holy history the law was fully satisfied [Rom. 10:4].

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

If I continue in the works of the lesh such as adultery, hatred, jealousies, idolatry, murder, drunkenness, etc, Paul says in no uncertain terms that I cannot inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5:19-21).

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Gerry...what does the 9th commandment say? Then please do not misquote Paul....In other words be a bit honest!

Here's what Paul says: "I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." [Gal 5:21]

Again a practiced sin is one the believer knows of and persistently refuses to acknowledge before God. So it isn't the sin that causes one to be lost, rather it is his lack of need of Christ's righteousness.

Turn to Heb 10:26

• "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,"

What truth...well, what's the context?

verse 19: Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the most holy place by the blood of Jesus [His life laid down in death], 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh....

"In Christ" we can come boldly before God's throne. Why? Verse 10: "And by that will [see verses 5-7], we have been made holy [past tense, how?] through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So let's repeat Hebrews 10:26 within the above context:

For if we sin deliberately [reject Christ's righteousness] after receiving the knowledge of the truth [the truth as it is "in Christ"], there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.....

Unbelief is "sin"! It is the one sin that Christ didn't take to the cross. If we sin [such as adultery] and refuse to acknowledge that sin before God, we begin the process of hardening the heart against the influence of God's Spirit.

In order to remain justified by faith we must acknowledge our sins before God. Why? It gives Him the legal right to declare us perfect "in Christ"! But if we refuse then, "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses [the 1st five books of the OT] dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

That brings us full circle to the man of Romans 7 who is failing to keep the spirit of God’s law. After his acknowledgement of his failure he says, “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!….

Is there any condemnation for such a believer who is depending on Christ’s righteousness for his ticket to heaven? Not according to Romans 8:1—“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Why? The truth as it is "in Christ"!

[Robert]

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Robert said:

Again a practiced sin is one the believer knows of and persistently refuses to acknowledge before God. So it isn't the sin that causes one to be lost, rather it is his lack of need of Christ's righteousness.

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This reminds me of another point. Let me quote from another post:

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Stan Jensen said:

Ellen White wrote that "no repentance is genuine that does not work reformation."

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I agree to a point....Let's look at another EGW statement:

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [i.e, "I am perfect"]." [AA 560]

A "besetting sin" is one of repetition...one the believer repeats over and over. Does this mean the repentance is not genuine? No...not according to the context of AA 560.

[Gerr]

Here is the insanity of your theology. As long as I acknowledge that it is wrong to fornicate, murder, covet, etc. etc., I can continue to do them!!! All I have to do is acknowledge that it is sinful to do them but don't have to forsake them!!! As long as I am acknowledging that it is sinful to do them, I am not practicing sin even if I am continually doing them!!!

You quote Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," but conveniently leave out the rest of the text which says, "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Paul explicitly says that those who "do such things" KJV, ["do"- prasso- practice, accomplish, perform, commit, perpetrate, to act] "will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21.

The same Paul says, "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them" Eph 5:6,7 NKJ.

To repeat, here is the insanity of your theology.

Damned if I obey [legalism according to you], damned if I disobey [according to the Bible].

Gerry

[Gerr]

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A "besetting sin" is one of repetition...one the believer repeats over and over. Does this mean

the repentance is not genuine?

No...not according to the context of AA 560.

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[:"blue"]Not so!!!! I don't know what dictionary you are using, but here is how Webster defines "besetting": adj. constantly harassing or attacking [a besetting temptation]. "beset" - to attack from all sides; harass or besiege, to surround or hem in.

The believer may be repeatedly harassed, attacked from all sides, hemmed in, but has nothing to do with the believer repeatedly sinning!!!

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful, he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." 1 Cor 10:13 NIV.

"We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down down, but not destroyed." 2 Cor 4:8 NIV [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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For if we

sin

deliberately [reject Christ's righteousness]

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[:"blue"]Are you making up your own Bible dictionary? Try 1 Jn 3:4 to define sin, or Rom 14:23. [/]

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after receiving the knowledge of the truth [the truth as it is "in Christ"], there no longer remains a sacrifice for

sins

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[:"blue"]So, what is Paul saying here? If after you have learned that it is sinful to fornicate, covet, murder, serve idols, yet you willfully, voluntarily of your own accord, do them anyway, can you continue rejoing under the umbrella of justification? Nooooooooo!!! He says you can look forward to "certain fearful expectation of judgment, & fiery indignation" !!!! The exact opposite of what you teach. [/]

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Unbelief is "sin"!

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[:"blue"] "And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Heb 3:18,19 NKJ.

Disobedience = Unbelief. Unbelief = disobedience

Grace was given to lead people to obedience that springs/inspired by faith, Rom 1:5, not to confirm them in disobedience. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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A "besetting sin" is one of repetition...one the believer repeats over and over. Does this mean

the repentance is not genuine?

No...not according to the context of AA 560.

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The believer may be repeatedly harassed, attacked from all sides, hemmed in, but has nothing to do with the believer repeatedly sinning!!!

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What did EGW state? "Besetting sins to overcome"!