Not Under Law – Under Grace

[benherndon]

Clio, I didn't mean to single you out---but I did include you in the question because you were active in the matters under discussion.

Ben

[benherndon]

Well, we have a list of 2 or 3 'besetting sins'...

(1) Love of money

(2) candy

(3) selfishness

....after all that energy of discussion and 46 references in 'the writings'.... that's all you'unz can come up with?

Remember there's a 'lake of fire' for those that don't 'overcome' them-----so far none of them are included in Rev 21 list of those who will be in that 'fiery lake'.

I'm waiting....

Ben

[archierieus]

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benherndon said:

Remember there's a 'lake of fire' for those that don't 'overcome' them-----so far none of them are included in Rev 21 list of those who will be in that 'fiery lake'.

I'm waiting....

Ben

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Ahh, but all this is so behavior-oriented. Seems to be missing a much deeper issue. As I recall from doing research years ago, one of the Hebrew words for 'sin'--used, as I recall, in Genesis--literally means 'to shatter the harmony.' We're talking about a relationship. The real issue seems to me to have to do with the heart. I believe that what God wants is a heart that is in communion with Him. Anything that shatters that harmony--whether behaviorial or anything else--is going to be a problem. And, ultimately, anything like that interferes in principle with the relationship between man and God. Thus, things which standing alone, might be perfectly innocuous, can shatter than sacred harmony if they come between a person and God. Years ago, a young man was preparing for baptism. Suddenly, he asked me, "If I get baptized, will have to give up my fish?" (He had a huge salt water aquarium, and beautiful fish.) I was puzzled, and said to him that there is nothing in Scripture about not having fish! But, then, as an afterthought, I asked him, 'what if Jesus did ask you to give them up? what would you do?" I guess things which, by themselves, are harmless, can assume the stature of idols in the life, which can be broken down as we recognize them.

Regards, Dave

[Clio]

Ah...

Well, in that case, I will offer up my ideas of deliberate sin and tripping.

Tripping is what norm describes as a loss of focus.

A deliberate sin is something I know to be sin, and just do it, even after my conscience bothers me before I do it. It's something I recognize to be wrong, know that if I holler, "Jesus Help Me" it will stop and go away, and consciously recognize it, but I DON'T holler for help and sin anyway.

Because at that moment, I just wanted to. In other words I knew it was wrong, knew the way out, and deliberately chose not to take it.

After doing that a few times, after understanding what Jesus really did for me, and having Jesus kick my butt over it, and then Abba Father got into the act... Oh man... I repented and turned from that kind of thing right quick.... I'll do anything not to get that kind of chastisement ever again!

Now, tripping on the other hand... They are most gentle and kind and patient and explain everything, and slowly a heart conviction grows about certain courses of activity, or I suddenly think, "well, duh!" and immediately ask for forgiveness with a contrite heart.

Clear as mud right?

Clio

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

We're talking about a relationship.

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Ah, but God's relationship to us isn't like your relationships, Dave....God loves us even when we hurt Him...when we turn our backs on Him.....He loves His enemies....He loves us irrespective of our performance. We must, by faith, remain in that love....

[benherndon]

To all, but not to anybody in particular: Look I didn't bring up the matter of 'besetting sins'. However, I want to know them by name like the info God gave us about laws, rules, decrees, and regulations in the writings of Moses where specific things were pointed out, detailedl, and not left to the imagination. If we have to overcome them, what are they? Too simple of a question?

No 'jingling pockets', no See's delicious candy, no selfish acts or thoughts--- one, two and three----that's all that's on the list, so far.

Away with the preaching and philosophising and lexicography, or whatever--for now, at least.

Just the list, please!

(Last call!)

Ben

[Clio]

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benherndon said:

To all, but not to anybody in particular: Look I didn't bring up the matter of 'besetting sins'. However, I want to know them by name like the info God gave us about laws, rules, decrees, and regulations in the writings of Moses where specific things were pointed out, detailedl, and not left to the imagination. If we have to overcome them, what are they? Too simple of a question?

No 'jingling pockets', no See's delicious candy, no selfish acts or thoughts--- one, two and three----that's all that's on the list, so far.

Away with the preaching and philosophising and lexicography, or whatever--for now, at least.

Just the list, please!

(Last call!)

Ben

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Dr. Ben... as I understand what they are defining as besetting, I think that list differs from individual to individual. We all have different areas where we struggle. It is anything that we consistently allow to have first place in our lives, instead of having Jesus in His rightful first place in our lives.

For many, that is money. Maybe not money in the way of greed (although that is prevalent,) but money also in the way of fear, of not having enough in an emergency.

For others, the besetting sin may be the regard in which they hold their spouse. Does that regard have first place or does Jesus have first place? It wasn't until I surrendered my love for my husband to Jesus and yielded to Him first place that love had occupied, that the necessary healing in my marriage and relationship with my husband could be released into my life.

For some, it may be food. Is food in first place in their life, or is Jesus?

For some it may be pride of knowledge. Is that knowledge more important to you than a compassionate, Jesus' heart filled with love, because Jesus has first place in your life?

It's whatever usurps His rightful, first place in your life.

My two cents.

Clio

[Robert]

Here's one: Pride in one's law-performance!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Dr Ben,

Heb ch 11 talks about faith and in this next verse it appears to me that what Paul is saying is that unbelief besets us, which goes along with my first repsonse to you on this topic.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin (unbelief) which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So I say unbelief.

and here's a verse to go:Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Norman

[benherndon]

"Besetting Sin List"

1--love of money

2--eating candy

3--selfishness

4--lack of compassionate heart towards others

5--pride that one's Ten Cs keeping is better than most others

6--unbelief in Christ as the Son of God who was raised from death

7--every action and thought while living in the state of unbelief.

8--?

9--?

10--?

etc--?????????????

---the above is the list, thus far----pretty far from complete and while Paul in Heb does use the term "beset", Norman, do you think in the context of the remainder of the NT that unbelief is a 'besetting sin' in the context of Sr. White's 46 references?

We haven't compiled this list very easily or quickly. This reveals none of us really knows for sure what a 'besetting sin' is other than love of money, candy, pride, selfishness, lack of compassion for other, and unbelief. So we can assume we don't know the difference between sins that lead to death and sins that don't, do we?

We also cannot supply a quick list of Sabbath Breaking sins either, I've noticed. So these things are quite uncertain. However, the NT does not let us think that 'unbelief' is other than a cardinal 'sin'. It is certainly not in the category on a scale of 1 to 10, like candy eating. I wonder....what are those 'wrong doing' sins are. I think they are our little imperfections of person and character that do not lead to death. What do you think, Clio, Norman, Rob, Gerry, LHC. You teach me, please. I think, also, that when one reads the NT as if it alone is one's authority about living the Christian life, one will see what is sin that leads to God's rejection and other faults that do not lead to God's rejection. How's that?

I still have to fall back on John 3:16ff and similar texts to assure myself that God loves me, too, as He does those who are better at following Him than I am.

I've hijacked this thread from Gerry and Robert and others. Pardon me...and carry on.

Ben

[Clio]

Ben, you and I have a fundamental differance of opinion on what a "besetting sin" is.

From what I can gather, I think you have defined a besetting sin as a noun.

I view it as an adjective. A 'besetting' sin. It's a sin that kicks my tail around the block on a regular basis. One that deep inside my 'self' there's a carnal part of me hanging on to it. For whatever reason, I haven't surrendered it to Jesus.

The list and what the items on it might be aren't important.

It's the fact that I haven't surrendered it, and know it. It's the one I feel guilty about, but don't really do anything about except every once in a while to feel better. It's the one, that I know I should surrender and not only don't I start to pray less frequently, getting myself more firmly entrenched.

It's not possible to truly repent without surrender. Whatever we don't surrender, is besetting.

Clio

[LifeHiscost]

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Clio said:

There is a whole group of people who are being prepared and taught by the Holy Spirit, because churchianity has nullified much of the witness of those who should know better.

And those people, who are coming out of the apostate churches, are NOT flocking to the SDA church, because they know all about churchianity and have rejected it. Instead, they are flocking to the Bible, to Jesus, and under HIS guidance are starting home churches, small cell groups, and worship teams.

Clio

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As you know, Clio, Jesus did not leave the church of His day

until He was totally rejected by them.

[:"red"] "Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate (abandoned and left destitute of God's help)." [/] Matthew 23:38 AMP

Do you feel that is where the Adventist church is today, totally deprived of the presence of the Holy Spirit? And if that were the case, how do you apply this counsel from the Word?

[:"red"] "...not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near." [/] Hebrews 10:25 NASB

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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benherndon said:

Norm, Clio and others:

I am waiting for a list of "besetting sins"!!!!!!!

Ben

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[:"red"] "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us" [/] Hebrews 12:1 NASB

[:"red"] "Therefore, we also having so great a cloud of witnesses set around us, every weight having put off, and the closely besetting sin, through endurance may we run the contest that is set before us" [/] Hebrews 12:1 YLT

[:"red"] "THEREFORE THEN, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who have borne testimony to the Truth], let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance (unnecessary weight) and that sin which so readily (deftly and cleverly) clings to and entangles us" [/] Hebrews 12:1 AMP

It seems to me, Ben, the attention would be the individuals

right to identify their own personal besetting sin. The translation by the Amplified indicates, that particular sin could be essentially different for every individual. I freely admit I have besetting sin(s), but I don't find it either important or necessary, nor am I moved by the Holy Spirit to reveal the specific places I'm convicted, although the Word does tell me how serious the offense and I feel impelled to tell the world of my sorrow I fail so miserably in honoring our Lord of Glory.

[:"red"] "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." [/] James 2:10 NASB

And OTOH this probably is sufficient to identify the sin(s) of most anybody.

[:"red"] "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world." [/] 1 John 2:16 NASB

[Robert]

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Clio said:

A 'besetting' sin. It's a sin that kicks my tail around the block on a regular basis. One that deep inside my 'self' there's a carnal part of me hanging on to it. For whatever reason, I haven't surrendered it to Jesus.

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"Deep inside my 'self'" doesn't make sense....Why not sum it the way Paul does?

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I [i.e., my mind/heart] that do it, but sin which dwell within me....For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

Do you feel that is where the Adventist church is today, totally deprived of the presence of the Holy Spirit? And if that were the case, how do you apply this counsel from the Word?

"...not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near." [/] Hebrews 10:25

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First of all that counsel was given to the Hebrew believers. So time and place must be taken into account.

Secondly the Hebrews understood the gospel. They had Paul....At that time no “falling away” from the truth as it is “in Christ” had occurred. That is not true now….

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

"Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us"

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Notice the above says, "and the SIN"....Is that Plural or singular? Right....Singular....Paul is referring to the sin of unbelief.

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

Legalists are the worst because they attribute all their goodies to their law-performance. They are the most covetous group I have ever seen in Christian circles. As Christ says, "All they do is to be seen of men." The Adventists church is full of these types....

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[:"red"] "Love... does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness...is ever ready to believe the best of every person... it takes no account of the evil done to it " [/] 1 Cor 13:6,7,5 AMP

[:"red"] "Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. " [/] 1 Peter 2:17 NASB

[:"red"] "If someone says, "I love God," but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar; for if we don't love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we have not seen? " [/] 1 John 4:20 NLT

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

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Robert said:

Legalists are the worst because they attribute all their goodies to their law-performance. They are the most covetous group I have ever seen in Christian circles. As Christ says, "All they do is to be seen of men." The Adventists church is full of these types....

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[:"red"] "Love... does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness...is ever ready to believe the best of every person... it takes no account of the evil done to it " [/] 1 Cor 13:6,7,5 AMP

[:"red"] "Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. " [/] 1 Peter 2:17 NASB

[:"red"] "If someone says, "I love God," but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar; for if we don't love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we have not seen? " [/] 1 John 4:20 NLT

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Oh, I see where you are going....You are telling me that love doesn't speak out...that love doesn't tell the truth!

Also...you're judging! You assume that I hate legalists. Well I use to, but now I hate "legalism" not the legalist.

See what happens when you point your finger at me....You accuse me of hating because I speak out against legalism in the SDA church, yet you can't read my motive. So you are sinning...you are judging. Maybe that's why Paul said, "Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself.....

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Most people have a lot of good in them. We can either notice the good, and seek to encourage it, or we can notice the warts. Much is in the eye of the beholder.

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"For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh [my humanity]."

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[:"blue"]If you remain in the flesh, you are correct.

[:"red"] "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And IF Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But IF the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells IN you." Rom 8:9-11 NKJ. [/] [/]

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Yes...the Spirit is good, but we are not the Spirit. We can to a point let Him have our humanity to reflect Christ, but technically there's nothing good in us because of the fall.

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[:"blue"]We are not the Spirit, true, but if we are indwelt by the Omnipotent, All-righteous, All-good Holy Spirit that enables us to will and to do what pleases God, how can the believer remain in a state in which nothing good dwells in him? Are you not saying then that the Holy Spirit is nothing good?

And here is your problem. You only want the Holy Spirit to take over your humanity "up to a point". The Holy Spirit cannot work with you if you are allowing Him to work with you "up to a point". There has to be total surrender. You cannot serve two masters. You have to choose one or the other.[/]

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So I don't know what measuring stick you are using, but I am looking at the selfless life of Christ....When I do that I see "nothing good"....The best of us are selfish! Yes we grow...yet there's self-seeking in our lives....[/quote

[:"blue"]You keep saying "we grow", but you have repeatedly refused to answer what you mean by it. On the one hand you claim that besetting sins are sins we commit over & over again. Now tell us, how is one growing if he/she is doing the same sinful thing over & over & over again?!!!

You keep equating the selflessness of Christ with homelessness. Was Jesus less selfless before He left his home to start preaching? [/]

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Legalists are the worst because they attribute all their goodies to their law-performance. They are the most covetous group I have ever seen in Christian circles. As Christ says, "All they do is to be seen of men." The Adventists church is full of these types....

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[:"blue"]May I ask, how did you acquire your goodies? Your house, your cars, & whatever possessions you have? Did you steal them? Or did you acquire them by lawful means? If you acquired them legally, then by your definition, you are just as much a legalist as the rest of us!!! [/]

Gerry

Gerry

[Gerr]

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benherndon said:

To whomever:

What is a 'besetting sin'? Give me a list of besetting sins from any source, especially from the Bible or EGW.

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[:"blue"]Let me cite Webster's definition again.

Beset - 1. to cover or set thickly with; stud 2. to attack from all sides; harass or besiege 3. to surround or hem in Syn. attack

Besetting - adj. constantly harassing or attacking [a besetting temptation]

What is besetting sin varies from person to person. What attacks & harasses one is no temptation to another.

[/]

Gerry

[Clio]

No, LHC, I don't feel the SDA church is wholly abandoned by the Spirit.

I do assemble, come together with like-minded believers. There are currently 8 of us who meet regularly.

I also attend the SDA church on occasion, but not nearly as much as I did two years ago. Mostly because I've had to be available for Mike for the last two years, but now because I am fed more deeply in our home church on topics Abba and Jesus lead us to study in depth.

Most people go to church and are fed in Sabbath School and church. How much "word" time do they really get? I get up on Sabbath, read in my Bible for an hour or two, prepare hot cocoa, tea or coffee for the rest of those who will be coming to study, and hit CA for a few minutes.

Then we begin. I may have 6 or 7 hours of in-depth, close communion with Jesus, Abba, and the Spirit. With like-minded sincere seekers after Jesus who take the Bible alone as the yardstick and who study at an intense level.

We have DVD's, (The Appearing is one set) books, concordances, histories, and now since Christmas this year, some AWESOME additions. We got 5 new books this year, and each one has been latched on to, and someone is studying it, and presenting to our group.

We have "Watch of the Lord" on Friday evenings and sometimes again on Sabbath evenings. We focus on family, relationships, and bearing other's burdens.

And occasionally go to a "church".

As we get closer and closer to the end, the time of the denominational church (any denomination) is ending. Remember, there won't be enough people in the remnant to support an organized denomination. Organized denominations will be following the Anti-Christ.

SDA's will be no different.

We are not there yet, but the time is close.

Clio

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Dr. Ben

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Norman, do you think in the context of the remainder of the NT that unbelief is a 'besetting sin' in the context of Sr. White's 46 references?

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I believe that behavior which causes us to do things that beset us is the result of unbelief.

Heb 3:19 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." I think that would be a besetting sin. It would surpass all other besetting sins and render them meaningless. My point is; why mess with the symptoms and when you can get to the root of the problem. Give me a moment to explain.

From what I understand there are two areas that we have to deal with. One is the flesh and the other is the spirit. There is a clear division in the Bible concerning this. In other words we are tempted in these two ways; through the flesh and through our spirit. The flesh debases and the spirit leads to pride. The lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes are flesh issues and the pride of life is what Satan tempts us with and leads to pride and pride related transgressions.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit , perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins (spirit) and the uncircumcision of your flesh, (flesh) hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Notice how Eve was tempted. She did not have fallen flesh for her to be tempted by but Satan came to her appealing to her spirit and her thinking was, “Wow, I can be like God!” Pride was born in her. Her sin was in the mind and it was followed by transgression of a direct command. There was no missing the mark there; rather she misjudged the character of God by willfully believing the lie to gain a higher state of existence. So what was her besetting sin? Would you say it was the fruit or the idea of being like God? It had to be the idea of being like God because before that the fruit on that tree had no appeal to her.

There is an important lesson there; deal with the spirit and you’ll have the flesh on the run. I’m going to say something that you or others may not agree with but here it goes. Christ was not tempted by the flesh, but every instance where you see Him being tempted it’s a pride temptation. “If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.” “If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written,”

“If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.”

“Christ never murmured, never uttered discontent, displeasure, or resentment. He was never disheartened, discouraged, ruffled, or fretted. He was patient, calm, and self-possessed under the most exciting and trying circumstances. All His works were performed with a quiet dignity and ease, whatever commotion was around Him. Applause did not elate Him. He feared not the threats of His enemies. He moved amid the world of excitement, of violence and crime, as the sun moves above the clouds. Human passions and commotions and trials were beneath Him. He sailed like the sun above them all.”

This day with God P263

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, (whether it be the flesh or a pride issue) and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, (think of the moment Eve decided to believe the lie) it bringeth forth sin; (Offence) and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (spiritual and eventually the 2nd death.)

By dealing with unbelief through love, we can say with Paul, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, (flesh based lusting) he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (spirit based, rejection of the Holy Spirit)

Heb 4:11 “Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief ."

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Heb 3:19 "So we see that they could not enter in because

of unbelief

." I think that would be a besetting sin.

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No...that's persistent sin....That's practicing sin because they never repented of their self-righteousness.

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2 Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the

flesh

and

spirit

, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

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The gospel doesn't give license to indulge the flesh. Paul points that out in Gal 5:13. Yet at the same time we shouldn't be deceived that we are "perfect"....

Paul clearly states that we "fall short" of God selfless love [see Rom 3:23]. After all Paul himself rejected the idea that he was perfect, although he was mature [see Phil 3:12]

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Notice how Eve was tempted.

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No...Eve was deceived by the nature of sin....Temptation is impossible without indwelling sin....Even Christ, as man, was tempted not to die for His enemies...Hence He said, " not as I [my flesh] desires, but your will Father."

You can't explain sin....It is a mystery. Both Adam and Eve were deceived....Think about it, because Adam was naturally indwelt by God's selfless love, Adam was willing to die with Eve, but in doing so He turned his back on God. So by default he rejected God.....

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Christ was not tempted by the flesh...

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Nonsense! Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin....EGW said His temptation was so great to say no to the cross that He sweat blood....Have you done that Norman?

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

If you remain in the flesh, you are correct.

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So you're not in the flesh? That's called holy flesh....EGW said anyone claming such legalistic nonsense is self-deceived!

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"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

IF

indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

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That is a difficult quote and you've managed to misconstrue it....However, it doesn't mean we are not "in the flesh" as in not having a sinful nature....You still retain "indwelling sin"....That remains until translation!

The best example of "not being in the flesh" is found in Eph 2:3

Among them [those spiritually dead] we too all formerly lived [i.e., as a way of life] in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind [i.e., our mind and our sinful nature were in complete harmony], and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Norman said:Heb 3:19 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." I think that would be a besetting sin.

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Rob said: No...that's persistent sin....That's practicing sin because they never repented of their self-righteousness.

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Call it what you will, it's still besetting

Rob Said:

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The gospel doesn't give license to indulge the flesh.

Paul points that out in Gal 5:13. Yet at the same time we shouldn't be deceived that we are "perfect"....

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Where do you see that I said that we have a license to indulge the flesh or that we are perfect? Your disagreement is with Paul, he wrote it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. My point was to show the two areas that we have to deal with, the flesh and the spirit.

Rob said,

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Paul clearly states that we "fall short" of God selfless love [see Rom 3:23]. After all Paul himself rejected the idea that he was perfect, although he was mature [see Phil 3:12]

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And he also said, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit , perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2Cor 7:1

you can choose to ignore that if you wish but it doesn't mean that it's not there or that we are required to do it through the promises by the Holy Spirit.

Rob said,

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No...Eve was deceived by the nature of sin....Temptation is impossible without indwelling sin....

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No Eve was deceived by Satan about the character of God. So temptationis impossible without indwelling sin huh? So God created Lucifer, Adam and Eve with indwelling sin. You can believe what you like Rob but it sounds strange to me.

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....Even Christ, as man, was tempted not to die for His enemies...Hence He said, " not as I [my flesh] desires, but your will Father."

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Exactly mt point He didn't want to be separated from our Father and His will was wanting to avoid that. His flesh had no part in the struggle. It was a mental struggle. He wasn't being tempted by anything debasing (works of the flesh) at that point and there's no record of Him ever being tempted by anything debasing.

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You can't explain sin....It is a mystery

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How it started is the only mystery about sin.

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Nonsense! Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin....EGW said His temptation was so great to say no to the cross that He sweat blood....Have you done that Norman?

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Where do you see His flesh acting in this temptation? There was no works of the flesh tempting Him here. This is what I'm saying. If He said no I won't go through this He would have been saying I am more important than them, that is a spiritual battle, nothing to do with the flesh. Why are you asking me if I have sweat blood? Look in the mirror and ask yourself. I answer to God, Rob.

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For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

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I can't deny that but I can expalin it and if you reason with me you'll see what I say makes sense. This temptation is referring to the willpower. He was tempted to use His own power as we are (after becoming God's children) tempted to rely on our own strength and willpower, instead of trusting God. If that is not the case them Christ can not meet the needs of a person in this day and age with all the new temptations that are available. i'g' internet porn, how can Jesus help those who are addicted or temted with that, He never had to face that specific temptation. There are other's as well. So you see it is not talking about the sins of the flesh or all but be tempted to use our own will in staed of trusting God. That was Jesus' temptation and in that He can help us.

IN order to keep this somewhat short I will cut it off here.

Norman