Not Under Law – Under Grace

[Robert]

Gerry...quit verse jumping....Stay within the context of the subject [Heb 10]! Now try again using a bit of honesty!

Thanks,

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Here is the insanity of your theology. As long as I

acknowledge

that it is wrong to fornicate, murder, covet, etc. etc., I can continue to do them!!!

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Folks...please notice two things with Gerry's theology:

1] As long as I acknowledge...I can continue to do them!

This comes from someone who wants to sin, but out of fear of hell keeps "the letter of the law"! His motive is all wrong....Remember God looks at our heart [motive], and not so much our performance.

2] Gerry lists only "the letter of the law" [i.e., fornicate, murder, covet, etc.]

He forgets Matt chapter 5! If you hate someone in the eyes of the law you've killed 'em. If you look at a woman lustfully, even for a millisecond, you've done it with her [according to the law]. And please don't forget our selfishness.

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You quote Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," but conveniently leave out the rest of the text which says, "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

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That's because the King James translators added, "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

In other words if one uses the KJV then the man of Romans 7 is under condemnation because he isn't fully walking in the Spirit. But praise the Lord, the other translations accurately reflect the original manuscripts.

[Gerr]

The KJV translators did not add the phrase. It was in the Greek text that was available to them, although it is true that the phrase is not in the Nestle-Aland Greek NT nor in the 4th edition of the United Bible Socities' Greek NT.

Be that as it may, suppose we remove the phrase from verse one. Then let's read what verses 3-9 of chapter 8.

[:"red"]"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the fleshset their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you."[/] NKJ.

Please note: it is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God and not the born again person. And please note that it is in the believer "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" in whom the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled, not in believers who continue to live according to the flesh.

The man of R7 cannot possibly be walking in the Spirit because he continues to do what the flesh tells him to do; he cannot resist it. Rom 8:4 says plainly, [:"red"] "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."[/]

But the promise to the believer is: instead of being indwelt by sin, he/she is indwelt by the Spirit, 8:9-11.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Here is the insanity of your theology. As long as I

acknowledge

that it is wrong to fornicate, murder, covet, etc. etc., I can continue to do them!!!

---

Folks...please notice two things with Gerry's theology:

1] As long as I acknowledge...I can continue to do them!

This comes from someone who wants to sin, but out of fear of hell keeps "the letter of the law"! His motive is all wrong....Remember God looks at our heart [motive], and not so much our performance.

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[:"blue"]If, according to your view, the man of R7 is the experience of the born-again person in whom nothing good dwells, in whom sin dwells, and according to you it is describing me, then I can't help it, can I? And if God sees that it is my motive not to fornicate, steal, murder, or covet, etc.etc. but I continue to do them anyway, that God will continue to justify me for my good intentions without actually forsaking the sin? [/]

[Gerr]

Is victory promised to the believer or not?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Robert thinks the apples & oranges look the same. He can't distinguish between obeying in order to be saved and obeying because one has been saved.

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Be that as it may, suppose we remove the phrase from verse one. Then let's read what verses 3-9 of chapter 8.

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No...then you change the whole context between Romans 7:22-25 and Romans 8:1.

You see the man of Romans 7 delights in God's law according to the renewed man, but he is failing to measure up performance wise. Is there any condemnation to such a believer? Romans 8:1 says "no"!

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

...then I can't help it, can I?

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Who does Gerry live for? Right, Gerry!

You remind me of one of those prosperity preachers. All that "God's going to make me rich" is really a cover for "coveting"!

So why don't you admit that you are "self-seeking" Gerry? Yes hopefully you are not like the carnal man....

I'll tell you why: You would have to admit that you are not measuring up to the spirit of God's law. But I think you're too proud to admit it...so you cover yourself with the garments of your own righteousness. That's dangerous....Your attitude is like that of the rich young ruler, "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?"

Rob

[Robert]

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…if God sees that it is my motive not to fornicate, steal, murder, or covet, etc. etc. but I continue to do them anyway [because my flesh gets the best of me], God will continue to justify me for my good intentions [motive]?...

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With the above changes the answer is "yes"!

1 Timothy 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful [past tense], putting me into service; 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. And yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief....

As a Pharisee Paul was honest in his convictions. He believed that the Christians were preaching blasphemy...therefore he had many of them stoned.

If God had looked at his outward actions and judged him according to the law Paul would have been condemned. But God didn't because He looked at Paul's heart. He saw a man zealous for His cause even though that zealousness was very misguided.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Robert thinks the apples & oranges look the same. He can't distinguish between obeying in order to be saved and obeying

because

one has been saved.

Gerry

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I've heard this before:

"We don't keep the law to be saved, we keep the law because we are saved."

Guess what? If I am failing to fully live a Holy life then I must not be saved...right?

In other words the above phrase is an attempted to fuse grace and legalism....The product? Subtle legalism.

Nice try,

Rob

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Guess what? If I am failing to fully live a Holy life then I must not be saved...right?

In other words the above phrase is an attempted to fuse grace and legalism....The product? Subtle legalism.

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Not in the slightest. The gospel of Jesus Christ causes a change in a person. It begins at the New Birth, and progress as time goes on, until, like leaven, it permeates the entire loaf. Former things have passed away, and we are a new creation in Christ Jesus.

We can either focus on Jesus, and cooperate with Him as He changes our lives, or we can hold on to our failings, and seek security in forensic justification--which is only PART of the gospel. The 1888'ers, like so many other groups, have focused on a particular aspect of the gospel, and Bible truth, to the danger-point. Desmond Ford seems to have done something similar. Etc., etc. Partial truth passed along as the essence of the gospel, and present truth.

Regards, Dave

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

The gospel of Jesus Christ causes a change in a person. It begins at the New Birth, and progress as time goes on, until, like leaven, it permeates the entire loaf. Former things have passed away, and we are a new creation in Christ Jesus.

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The only change is in the heart/mind! The "flesh" remains 100% sinful and our life, mortal.

As to a "new creation", note the context:

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Tell me, have all things become new in you? No! You still retain your sinful nature. You’re still mortal. You’re still sinner. Only "in Christ" do you have holy flesh; immortality and sinlessness. Reading the context always helps, Dave.

Rob

[Robert]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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A "besetting sin" is one of repetition...one the believer repeats over and over. Does this mean

the repentance is not genuine?

No...not according to the context of AA 560.

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The believer may be repeatedly harassed, attacked from all sides, hemmed in, but has nothing to do with the believer repeatedly sinning!!!

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What did EGW state? "Besetting sins to overcome"!

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Gerry...there's no doubt that the believer can make progress in his maturity level, but never as a means of salvation. But the fact remains that the Christian has besetting sins "TO OVERCOME." That means he/she is failing and falling into the same old sins again and again. You need to face this fact. Who are you kidding?

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Be that as it may, suppose we remove the phrase from verse one. Then let's read what verses 3-9 of chapter 8.

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No...then you change the whole context between Romans 7:22-25 and Romans 8:1.

You see the man of Romans 7 delights in God's law according to the renewed man, but he is failing to measure up performance wise. Is there any condemnation to such a believer? Romans 8:1 says "no"!

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[:"blue"]The reason the man of R7 is not condemned in 8:1 is because that "wretched man" of R7 is delivered by Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom 7:24. If the R7 man is a converted man, one who has already been saved/delivered from the dominion of sin, then he would not be asking, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

Jesus promised that when the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. If as you say, the man of R7 was already free, why then would he himself ask for deliverance????

Those who have been delivered from the dominion/slavery of sin are the ones who are not under condemnation!!!!!!!!!! [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

If the R7 man is a converted man, one who has already been saved/delivered from the dominion of sin, then he would not be asking, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

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What's the man of Romans 7 answer?

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Unconverted people do not thank Jesus Christ for delivering them from the death penalty. Only converted believers do that.

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Jesus promised that when the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. If as you say, the man of R7 was already free, why then would he himself ask for deliverance????

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Free from under law, Gerry....Not free from sin! You're still sinning, remember? [And don't forget 1 John 1:8]

"For the law of the Spirit of life [where?] in Christ Jesus has [past tense] set me free from the law of sin and death. [Rom 8:2]

The man of Romans 7, because of his faith in Jesus, has been set free from his sin nature and the law's requirement of death "in Christ Jesus."

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Those who have been delivered from the dominion/slavery of sin are the ones who are not under condemnation!

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That's salvation by works....I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin. Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ. Who are you kidding?

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

...then I can't help it, can I?

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Who does Gerry live for? Right, Gerry!

You remind me of one of those prosperity preachers. All that "God's going to make me rich" is really a cover for "coveting"!

So why don't you admit that you are "self-seeking" Gerry? Yes hopefully you are not like the carnal man....

I'll tell you why: You would have to admit that you are not measuring up to the spirit of God's law. But I think you're too proud to admit it...so you cover yourself with the garments of your own righteousness. That's dangerous....Your attitude is like that of the rich young ruler, "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?"

Rob

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[:"blue"]Has God given you the ability to read hearts?

You remind me of what a former editor of the Review said years ago. He said that he was reading EGW and came across where she said to the effect, "You are eating too much sweets." So he cut his sweet consumption in half. The next time he read the statement, it still said, "You are eating too much sweets." So he cut the half in half again. But when he read the statement, it still said the same thing. So he cut it out sweets altogether. When he went back to read what she said, guess what? She still said the same thing even though he was down to nothing!!!

So to you, there is never any victory. When you read Rev 3 about Laodicea, even if the believer goes to Christ for the salve, the raiment, and the gold, when you read it, it still says the same thing, & must therefore remain applicable. If porno is my besetting sin, & according to your interpretation of what EGW says, then I can never come to the point of victory because when you read the same statement, it still says, "you have besetting sins to overcome."

Robert, the God of the Bible is not a God of poverty. When He created A & E, He provided everything they could ever think of that they needed & even more. Jesus became poor so that through His poverty you might become rich.

[:"red"]"Since God did not spare even His own Son but gave Him up for us all, won't God, who gave us Christ, also give us everything else?" Rom 8:32 NLT

"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Mt 6:33 NKJ [/]

If the believer abides in Christ, and if God is working in him/her through the Holy Spirit in willing & doing, how could the believer not "measure up"?

If no one can "measure up", how then can the Lord say to anyone, "Well done, good and faithful servant....enter into the joy of your lord?" Mt 25:21 [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Robert said:

I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin.

Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted

- yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ.

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"We [i.e., "we" believers] may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, [:"red"]like the common sinner[/]: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28]

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

If porno is my besetting sin, & according to your interpretation of what EGW says, then I can never come to the point of victory [over porno]....

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No, she didn't say that....She said "besetting sins to overcome." How long does it take? I don't know, but we only have so long to live and overcoming takes time. So you might get 12 under your belt before you go to sleep. That's sanctification or growing in grace.

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Robert, the God of the Bible is not a God of poverty. When He created A & E, He provided everything they could ever think of that they needed & even more. Jesus became poor so that through His poverty you might become rich.

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Here you go with the "coveting" thing again!

James 4:3 "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures."

According to EGW our motives aren't perfect [would you like some quotes?]. We "covet" that big, fine home...so we say, "God, if you give this nice home I've been wanting I'll have the pathfinders over all the time and they can use my pool." However God reads the heart and He knows you're thinking also of yourself.....That's sin too! So many times we get the goodies and give God the credit....But in reality God didn't do it!

Why would God want to give sinners "things" so that they would become more selfish? That was the rich young rulers’ problem. He thought his goodies came from God because of his commandment keeping. He kept the letter of the law for the selfish motive of getting "things"! Hence he coveted....

Yes, God doesn't want us "poor", but neither does He want us selfish. If you are not partly selfish, in this world under Satan, you will be homeless. That's why Christ was without because, as EGW says, "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly [not partially] given to the service of others.”

Can't you see that Gerry? I mean you are a smart guy....Anyone who has the brains to be a Doctor should be able to reason this out.

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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A "besetting sin" is one of repetition...one the believer repeats over and over. Does this mean

the repentance is not genuine?

No...not according to the context of AA 560.

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The believer may be repeatedly harassed, attacked from all sides, hemmed in, but has nothing to do with the believer repeatedly sinning!!!

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What did EGW state? "Besetting sins to overcome"!

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Gerry...there's no doubt that the believer can make progress in his maturity level,

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[:"blue"]Now, how can the believer be making progress & maturing if he/she is under the control of the same besetting sin over & over & over again! [/]

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but never as a means of salvation.

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[:"blue"]Others & I have been telling you over & over again that the believer obeys not as a means to be saved but because he/she knows that to knowingly commit a sinful act is like driving nails into the hands & feet of the Lord whom he/she loves all over again! He/she loves the Lord so much that he/she doesn't want to do that anymore! Yet you call this subtle legalism. Not so. You can repeat your mantra all you want, but that doesn't make it so. The believer obeys because he/she loves. Remember what Jesus said? "If you love me you will keep my commandments."

[/]

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But the fact remains that the Christian has besetting sins "TO OVERCOME."

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[:"blue"] "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 Jn 5:3-5 NIV

Did you get that Robert? His commands are not burdensome, not the impossible commands you make them out to be. God makes it easy, He says when you love, you have fulfilled the requirement of the law.

And if you can't overcome that besetting sin, you should ask yourself, am I born of God? Do I have faith? Do I believe in Jesus who is the Son of the Almighty, Omnipotent God?

As I said before, your trouble is the Jesus you believe in is totally powerless. The Holy Spirit you believe in is no more than hot air. The God you believe in has no more power than an idol.[/]

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That means he/she is failing and falling into the same old sins again and again. You need to face this fact. Who are you kidding?

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[:"blue"]"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that the we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." 1 Jn 5:18,19 NIV.

Are you born of God? Are a child of God? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

If the R7 man is a converted man, one who has already been saved/delivered from the dominion of sin, then he would not be asking, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

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What's the man of Romans 7 answer?

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Unconverted people do not thank Jesus Christ for delivering them from the death penalty. Only converted believers do that.

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[:"blue"]What was R7 thanking God for? If, as a converted man, he was still under the dominion of sin, unable to resist what sin tells him to do, how could he be thankful for that condition?

He thanks God because God could deliver him from his dilemma. His dilemma was that when he wanted to do good, he winds up doing the opposite! Not so the believer, not intentionally anyway! The sins that the believer does not intend to do but winds up doing are the knee-jerk reactions that happen before they register through the will. But deliberate sins? No way, as long as one abides in Christ. [/]

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Jesus promised that when the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. If as you say, the man of R7 was already free, why then would he himself ask for deliverance????

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Free from under law, Gerry....Not free from sin!

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[:"blue"]Oh, so now you are saying, since God cannot eradicate sin from the believer, He is now legalizing sin by doing away with the law! Just like the liberals who want to legalize drugs in order to do away with the criminal use of drugs.

Don't you realize you are contradicting the plainest words of Scripture?

[:"red"]<font size=4> "And having been set free from sin, </font> you became slaves of righteousness."

"But now <font size=4>having been set free from sin,</font>, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting live." Rom 6:18,22 NKJ [/] [/]

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You're still sinning, remember? [And don't forget 1 John 1:8]

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[:"red"]"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. no one who continues to sin to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NIV [/]

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"For the law of the Spirit of life [where?]

in Christ Jesus

has [past tense]

set me free from the law of sin and death.

[Rom 8:2]

The man of Romans 7, because of his faith in Jesus, has been set free from his sin nature and the law's requirement of death "in Christ Jesus."

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Those who have been delivered from the dominion/slavery of sin are the ones who are not under condemnation!

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That's salvation by works....

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[:"blue"]Then you have to take your quarrel with Paul, because it was he who said wrote Rom 8:3,4. [/]

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I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin. Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ. Who are you kidding?

Rob

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[:"blue"]Hopefully? Read the promises of 1 Jn 3:6-9 & 1 Jn 5:18,19 over & over again.

R7 cannot/could not be just hoping to avoid the gross sins. A slave cannot pick & choose which commands his master gives him to obey. Remember? R7 is under the kingship of sin! [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

I have used the same brains with the help of the Holy Spirit to arrive at the same spot I'm in now.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Robert said:

I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin.

Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted

- yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ.

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"We [i.e., "we" believers] may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, [:"red"]like the common sinner[/]: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28]

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[:"blue"]If I come to Christ repenting & confessing these sins, and asking for cleansing, and if I read the same thing again tomorrow, it will still say the same thing. At what point will this statement no longer applicable to me? Forever? [/]

Gerry

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin.

Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted

- yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ.

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus,

that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, [:"red"]like the common sinner[/]

: but

when

the light from Christ shines into our souls,

we shall see how impure we are

;

we shall discern the selfishness of motive

, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28]

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These words quoted from Steps to Christ, are from an early chapter in the book. The chapter is a description of someone who does not know Christ, then sees Jesus, and by contrast sees his or her true spiritual condition. Contrast that description with what the author says later in the book about converted believers, growing up into Christ. Your supplied words, in brackets, are indeed, supplied by you, but not stated by the author.

Regards, Dave

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

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Robert said:

I still sin...you still sin. Oh sure, we now hate sin, but we still sin.

Hopefully not the gross sins of the unconverted

- yet we still fall short of God's love as seen in the life of Jesus Christ.

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus,

that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, [:"red"]like the common sinner[/]

: but

when

the light from Christ shines into our souls,

we shall see how impure we are

;

we shall discern the selfishness of motive

, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28]

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These words quoted from Steps to Christ, are from an early chapter in the book. The chapter is a description of someone who does not know Christ....

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The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity [i.e., they fall short of the requirements of the law], and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles [humanity] must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption . He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

Oh, that all may see that everything [:"red"]in obedience[/], in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ [i.e., “self” must be burned out of our best]. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat. [1SM 344]