Not Under Law – Under Grace

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Norman said:

Call it what you will, it's still besetting

A besetting sin is one we fall into again and again, but repent of again and again....A practiced sin is one we persistently refuse to repent of....

Quote:

we are required

to do it through the promises by the Holy Spirit.

Legalism!

Quote:

Why are you asking me if I have sweat blood? Look in the mirror and ask yourself. I answer to God, Rob.

My point was have you sweated blood in resisting sin, as did Christ?

Quote:

If that is not the case them Christ can not meet the needs of a person in this day and age with all the new temptations that are available. i'g' internet porn, how can Jesus help those who are addicted or tempted with that, He never had to face that specific temptation.

All temptations have one common root: The love of self or self-seeking! Porn appeals to our naturew because those girls act as if they are all interested in us when what they are really interested in is the money in our wallets.

Was Christ tempted by selfishness and self-love/self-seeking? Yes...because He assumed our humanity indwelt with the law of sin. It tempted Him to love self....This is especially true before and on the cross....He was tempted to come down of the cross and live, but this would have caused the human race...those murdering Him, to be eternally lost. Hence the cross proves that Christ loves His enemies more than Himself....After all He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so His murderers could live.

Rob

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Robert said:

At that time no “falling away” from the truth as it is “in Christ” had occurred.

[:"red"] "Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many..." [/] 1 John 2:18 YLT

January 23, 2006

Quote:

LifeHiscost said:

Quote:

Robert said:

At that time no “falling away” from the truth as it is “in Christ” had occurred.

[:"red"] "Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many..." [/] 1 John 2:18 YLT

Right...but the falling away was future......

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [future tense in Paul's days], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Robert said:

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo said:

If you remain in the flesh, you are correct.

So you're not in the flesh? That's called holy flesh....EGW said anyone claming such legalistic nonsense is self-deceived!

[:"blue"]Oh, I see that you can't see the difference between living still this body of sin but being "dead indeed to sin and alive to God" and living in this body of sin and remaining a slave to sin, following the dictates of the flesh. The "old man" was crucified, the born again believer is clothed with the "new man".

Quote:

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

IF

indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

That is a difficult quote and you've managed to misconstrue it....However, it doesn't mean we are not "in the flesh" as in not having a sinful nature....You still retain "indwelling sin"....That remains until translation!

The best example of "not being in the flesh" is found in Eph 2:3

Among them [those spiritually dead] we too all formerly lived [i.e., as a way of life] in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind [i.e., our mind and our sinful nature were in complete harmony], and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

[:"blue"]Well, did you catch what Paul was saying in your quote? "We too all formerly lived[ past tense, not an ongoing practice like your definition of besetting sin/practiced sin]] in the lusts of our flesh & of the mind, and were [past tense again] by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

The promise is that those who are indwelt by the Spirit and who "walk in the Spirit,...shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16. They may be constantly being attacked, harassed, beset by all kinds of temptation, but when indwelt by the Spirit & walking in the Spirit, they no longer fulfill/perform/execute what the flesh tells them it craves.

Paul is very clear when he says, those "who practice such things [i.e. the works of the flesh: adultery, fornication, etc. etc.] will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21.

This you boldly contradict and claim that we can keep on doing these things and as long as we acknowledge them to be sinful, we can keep on doing them and still remain saved!!! [/]

Gerry

January 23, 2006

Falling away future? Why don't you consult your history books and see when the great falling away was? How do you think Sunday got to be substituted for the Sabbath? How do you think idols were brought into the church in direct violation of the second commandment? The worship of Mary and the saints?

Gerry

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Robert said:

Quote:

Norman said:

Call it what you will, it's still besetting

A besetting sin is one we fall into again and again, but repent of again and again....A practiced sin is one we persistently refuse to repent of....

[:"blue"]So, if my besetting sin is pornography, serial murder, cheating on my taxes, etc. I will be doing porno, murder, cheating, etc. until Jesus comes? And still saved? Doing all these and growing in grace? [/]

Quote:

we are required

to do it through the promises by the Holy Spirit.

Legalism!

[:"blue"]"But you are NOT controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit IF you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.)

So, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation whatsoever to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you keep on following it, you will perish. But IF through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from it and its evil deeds you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God." Rom 8:9, 12-14 NLT [/]

Quote:

Why are you asking me if I have sweat blood? Look in the mirror and ask yourself. I answer to God, Rob.

My point was have you sweated blood in resisting sin, as did Christ?

[:"blue"]Is that what is required to resist sin? Sweat blood? Or is it to be indwelt by Christ & His Spirit? [/]

Quote:

If that is not the case them Christ can not meet the needs of a person in this day and age with all the new temptations that are available. i'g' internet porn, how can Jesus help those who are addicted or tempted with that, He never had to face that specific temptation.

All temptations have one common root: The love of self or self-seeking! Porn appeals to our naturew because those girls act as if they are all interested in us when what they are really interested in is the money in our wallets.

Was Christ tempted by selfishness and self-love/self-seeking? Yes...because He assumed our humanity indwelt with the law of sin. It tempted Him to love self....This is especially true before and on the cross....He was tempted to come down of the cross and live, but this would have caused the human race...those murdering Him, to be eternally lost. Hence the cross proves that Christ loves His enemies more than Himself....After all He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so His murderers could live.

Rob

[:"blue"]"But remember that the temptations that come into your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can't stand up against it. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it." 1 Cor 10:13 NLT.

[/]

Gerry

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Robert said:

Quote:

archierieus said:

We're talking about a relationship.

Ah, but God's relationship to us isn't like your relationships, Dave....God loves us even when we hurt Him...when we turn our backs on Him.....He loves His enemies....He loves us irrespective of our performance. We must, by faith, remain in that love....

[:"blue"] And because God loves us no matter what, does that mean that because of that love we remain saved while pounding nails into the hands and feet of our Lord all over again by deliberately continueing to live in sin? [/]

Gerry

January 23, 2006

Yes, and No, depending upon the level of our 'humanity' that is exhibited, perhaps....maybe? For example, is eating a Snicker candy bar between meals, or saying 'durned thing' and such....is that driving a nail through the hand of Christ all over again? Or, scheming to buy a piece of property at a distressed good price, taking advantage of the selller's urgent desire to dispose of it, almost at

'any' price....is that evil and driving another nail into the Savior's hands crucifing Him, spitting on Him, driving the 'crown of thorns' deeper into the skin of His forehead? I was taught that by W D Frazee, that even reading the funny papers or having a hormonal response to the lovely date at 18 yrs of age....all this was recrucifying the Lord? Have you read Messages to Young people? In my opinion, it is a book that should never have been published and....might I say, 'she' didn't write it!!

I'm not real serious...and I have survived through it all and still remain, though some of you question, a Christian, at least in my own opinion after reading the NT scores of times.

I think the message often left in the minds of our youth is that they must constantly, every minute, yeah, every second of life be constantly on guard they don't 'recrucify' our Lord!! After all He put us here--by here I mean on this earth, to live this life in the state of world affairs we are in. We can't run around with downcast fearful facial expressions 'all' the time. And, it sure sounds like a lot of the comments on this Forum are pushing forth that kind of a life. There is 'fun' to be had in this life. There are laughs to be enjoyed. There are even sexual jokes to laugh over and other fun things to taste and be cheerful about just because we are here.

I'm tired of...and my kids and they kids I have enquired from--are tired of being so constantly careful about everything fun or tasty or sexy being another crucifixion experience. I don't get this from the Bible.....may be that some do...and I was taught it ad infinitum.....but I don't believe that's the message I get from the NT at least.

Not angry.....just letting my hair down a bit. More of a plea for some moderation about perfectionism--under any name or collage of inferences.

Ben

January 23, 2006

No quibbles with you there Dr. Ben. It is, after all, the JOY of the Lord that is our strength. And a spirit of fear He has not given us.

He tells us specifically that His yoke is easy and His burden is light... if it isn't, then it isn't His.

Clio

January 23, 2006

Ben, I have repeatedly stated my position in this forum. Perfection in this life, meaning that we will never commit another sin be it unintentionally or deliberately, I have never taught in this forum. But I do believe what the Apostle John says in 1 Jn 3 & 5 that when we abide in Him, we will not continue to sin, and I understand this to mean, as the Amplified version so clearly states, not wilfully/intentionally/deliberately doing something we know and fully convinced to be a sinful act. That is the promise of the Apostle John. I don't believe God holds us accountable for sins we commit that happen even before it is registered in the will. For example, if a sailor who cusses like any sailor becomes born again & stubs his toe, chances are that he may utter some expletives as an automatic response. Will God judge him for taking His name in vain? I rather doubt it. But to plot & intentionally/deliberately do what one knows to be sinful, that's another matter. For this, I believe we will always be held liable until we repent of it.

Gerry

January 24, 2006

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo said:

But I do believe what the Apostle John says in 1 Jn 3 & 5 that when we abide in Him, we will not continue to sin, and I understand this to mean, as the Amplified version so clearly states, not wilfully/intentionally/deliberately doing something we know and fully convinced to be a sinful act.

Boy...you keep watering down sin to the things you can keep! Anything so Gerry can get credit and look down his self-righteous nose at everyone else....Your self-righteousness disgust me!

Gerry, get off your high horse! You are intentionally self-seeking! Just about everything in your life is about you....You name it...education, homes, cars, etc...all smack of Gerry's love of self....Christ never lived for Himself.

Until you realize this truth you will remain an ignorant, foolish, legalistic, self-righteous man. Your whole attitude sickens me as it does Christ:

Rev 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth. [Why?] 17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked….19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent.

January 24, 2006

Quote:

benherndon said:

There is 'fun' to be had in this life. There are laughs to be enjoyed. There are even sexual jokes to laugh over and other fun things to taste and be cheerful about just because we are here.

I'm tired of...and my kids and they kids I have enquired from--are tired of being so constantly careful about everything fun or tasty or sexy being another crucifixion experience. Ben

[:"red"] "Stop loving this evil world and all that it offers you, for when you love the world, you show that you do not have the love of the Father in you. " [/]

1 John 2:15 NLT

[:"red"] "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. " [/] 1 John 2:16 NASB

[:"red"] "Be not [morbidly exacting and externally] righteous overmuch, neither strive to make yourself [pretentiously appear] overwise--why should you [get puffed up and] destroy yourself [with presumptuous self-sufficiency]? " [/] Ecclesiastes 7:16 AMP

January 24, 2006

Quote:

Robert said:

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo said:

But I do believe what the Apostle John says in 1 Jn 3 & 5 that when we abide in Him, we will not continue to sin, and I understand this to mean, as the Amplified version so clearly states, not wilfully/intentionally/deliberately doing something we know and fully convinced to be a sinful act.

Boy...you keep watering down sin to the things you can keep! Anything so Gerry can get credit and look down his self-righteous nose at everyone else....Your self-righteousness disgust me!

[:"blue"] Do you believe what Jesus said? [:"red"]"Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 NIV. [/]

Do you believe what John said? [:"red"] "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NIV [/] [/]

Quote:

Gerry, get off your high horse! You are intentionally self-seeking! Just about everything in your life is about you....You name it...education, homes, cars, etc...all smack of Gerry's love of self....Christ never lived for Himself.

[:"blue"]And I suggest that you get off your horse of unbelief. You claim to have faith in Jesus, but the Jesus you believe in must not be the Son of the Omnipotent God because the Jesus you believe in does not have the power to save or deliver you from sin.

Has it ever occurred to you that there are people in this world who improve themselves so that they can become contributors & benefactors to society instead of being burdens to society?

When Jesus learned the trade of carpentry, was He being selfish? When He learned to read, was He being selfish? Was Jesus more selfish when He remained at home than when He left it?

[:"red"]"The development of all our powers IS THE FIRST DUTY we owe to God and to our fellow men. No one who is not growing daily in capability and usefulness is fulfilling the purpose of life. In making a profession of faith in Christ we pledge ourselves to become all that it is possible for us to be as workers for the Master, and we should cultivate every faculty to the highest degree of perfection, that we may do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable." COL 329,330 [/]

Tell us how useful you would be being homeless & ignorant! [/]

Quote:

Until you realize this truth you will remain an ignorant, foolish, legalistic, self-righteous man. Your whole attitude sickens me as it does Christ:

Rev 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold,

I will vomit you out of My mouth.

[Why?] 17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and

have need of nothing

,”

and you do not know that you are wretched

and miserable and poor and blind and naked….19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent.

[:"blue"]I have repented over & over & over again & again & again. I have placed my trust in Jesus' righteousness as my sole hope of salvation. So I have accepted His raiment to cover my nakedness. I have asked for His eyesalve the Holy Spirit to heal my blindness. But you boldly claim I'm still wretched, naked, & blind. Why? Because no matter how many times a sinner comes to your Jesus, your Jesus has no power to clothe me nor heal my blindness nor my sinfulness! I remain the same!!!

Robert, what you are trying to palm off as good news is the most hopeless, the most discouraging bit of news the devil could possibly concoct. For the life of me, I don't understand how you could not possibly see this.

Let me warn you again, that you are treading on blasphemous grounds when you attribute the works of the Holy Spirit produced in the trusting believer as works of human or devilish origin. [/]

Gerry

January 24, 2006

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo said:

Robert, what you are trying to palm off as good news is the most hopeless, the most discouraging bit of news the devil could possibly concoct. For the life of me, I don't understand how you could not possibly see this.

Let me warn you again, that you are treading on blasphemous grounds when you attribute the works of the Holy Spirit produced in the trusting believer as works of human or devilish origin. [/]

Gerry

Gerry - You have spoken truth here. Attributing the works of the Holy Spirit in the trusting believer to human or devilish origin is blasphemy indeed, and something that will lead to the strong delusion being complete in that individual.

Robert's false teachings regarding an impotent Jesus, powerless to change the life of the believer here on earth is falsehood of the highest order. It is why I make a distinction between Jesus and True Jesus.

I have the raiment of pure white righteousness, given me by my Saviour because I entered into His covenant sealed with His Blood. I have the eyesalve, the fine gold of His faith, and He changes my life and my character as He sees fit.

The glorious good news is that the healing starts and continues now, and will reach it's full glory when He returns to take me Home. And He does all this for me by grace and faith because I cannot do it for myself.

Courage Gerry. I continue to pray for your efforts.

Clio

January 24, 2006

Quote:

Clio said:

Robert's false teachings regarding an impotent Jesus, powerless to change the life of the believer here on earth is falsehood of the highest order....I have the eyesalve, the fine gold of His faith, and He changes my life and my character as He sees fit.

I fully charge you with blasphemy! You inject sinful, human traits onto my loving God who neither forces nor coerces His will on His creatures.

God can do nothing without our COMPLETE consent moment by moment....He will never force you to do anything. The fault is not with God in "falling short" of His love, rathr the fault lies with our human weakness, i.e., the human element!

The work of the Holy Spirit is not in addition to what Christ did 2000 years ago....Only as you are fully resting in His doing & dying can you begin to experience a true change, but as both the Bible and EGW state, we will never be perfect this side of eternity....Clearly you need eyesalve! In comparison with His love, we are wretched!

Rob

January 25, 2006

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo said:

Has it ever occurred to you that there are people in this world who improve themselves so that they can become contributors & benefactors to society instead of being burdens to society?

Jesus was never a burden, yet He never lived for Himself. "All we like sheep have gone astray, we have all turned to our own way." That "own way" is our self-seeking....

Quote:

When Jesus learned the trade of carpentry, was He being selfish?

Verse please! Yes...He probably helped his dad, but Jesus wasn't out for the money and the nice things that go with learning a skill. Why? Self-seeking is sin!

Quote:

"The development of all our powers IS THE FIRST DUTY we owe to God and to our fellow men....We should cultivate every faculty to the highest degree of perfection, that we may do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable." COL 329,330

Fine...develop away, but live for others and not yourself! Ah, but you have nice things being a doctor, huh? Why? "Self-seeking"!

Proof? Gladly!

"Christ's life on earth teaches that to obtain higher education [i.e., "the development of all our powers"] does not mean to gain popularity, [:"red"]to secure worldly advantage[/] - to have all the temporal wants abundantly supplied, and to be honored by the titled and wealthy of earth.....His life rebukes all self-seeking. As He went about doing good He made plain the character of God's law and the nature of His service." [CT 34]

Like I said Gerry...you are "self-seeking"! And you condemn those who do the same sins again and again? Hypocrite!

Rob

January 25, 2006

Hi Rob,

Did you kow that you are under the law?

Norman

January 25, 2006

Quote:

Norman said:

Hi Rob,

Did you know that you are under the law?

Norman

Dream on....

January 25, 2006

Rob,

it's true I just read it, I will now be calling you Lawbert

Norman

January 25, 2006

Funny...

January 25, 2006

Quote:

Robert said:

"Christ's life on earth teaches that to obtain

higher education

[i.e., "the development of all our powers"] does not mean to gain popularity,

[:"red"]to secure worldly advantage[/]

-

to have all the temporal wants abundantly supplied

, and to be honored by the titled and wealthy of earth.....

His life rebukes all self-seeking

. As He went about doing good He made plain

the character of God's law

and the nature of His service." [CT 34]

“To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him as his disciple, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." [:"red"]Those who follow him must share his poverty.[/] "If any man will come after me [i.e., live Christ’s life]," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples." [RH 7-4-1912]

Again, poverty doesn't make you righteous, but if you live Christ's selfless life [a righteous life] in this world under "self" you will be without! That's the issue....

January 25, 2006

Lawbert,

I thought you'd like that.

But seriously look at this verse carefully.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Now look at this translation for clarity

Rom 3:19 We know that everything in the Law was written for those who are under its power. The Law says these things to stop anyone from making excuses and to let God show that the whole world is guilty.

This list according to you is the state that we are in, but this is also a list of people under the power of the law because of sin, in that they are doing those things written below. So according to you we are still doing these things, therefore we are all still guilty before God.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

January 25, 2006

Here's the context starting with verse 9

What then? Are we [Jews] better than they [Gentiles]? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin; 10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one....

If you weren't under sin, even though you grow spiritually, you wouldn't be in a state of sin! You wouldn't be "falling short" of God's agape. Hence in that respect there's none righteous! Even Jesus stated this: "there is none good but one, that is, God"....

How many good, Norman? Right only God in the context of humanity....

Verse 11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God;

Doesn't Paul say this? "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror...." [1 Cor 13:9,12]

And God seeks after us....The 99 sheep doesn't going looking for the Shepherd!

12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”

13 “Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving,” “The poison of asps is under their lips” ;

14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness” ; 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood, 16 Destruction and misery are in their paths, 17 And the path of peace have they not known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The law exposes not sins, but SIN! It exposes our self-seeking...our selfish motive...our self-love! Hence the essence of sin is not breaking rules, but rather the love of self instead of God's selfless love....

But lucky for you I have some good news:

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;

Why apart from the law?

For there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

24 being justified [we are in a state of justification as long as we believe] as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God [His kindness] He passed over the sins previously committed [before the cross]; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised [the Jews] by faith and the uncircumcised [the Gentiles] through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through the faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

If you look in a good, NT Greek Bible the definite article "the" precedes the word faith. So verse 31 reads like this in the NT Greek:

31 Do we then nullify the Law through Jesus? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Does the fact that we are justified through Jesus Christ bypass the law? No! Why not? Because I obeyed..you obeyed the law perfectly "in Christ"! Our fallen humanity was in Him! That's the gospel.

So your context is off....

January 25, 2006

Quote:

Clio said:

Robert's false teachings regarding an impotent Jesus, powerless to change the life of the believer here on earth is falsehood of the highest order.

As I said, the problem is not with Christ...it is with your [my] impotent surrender!

-PC- ST

-PT- The Signs of the Times

-DT- 06-09-81

-AT- Idolatry Punished

-PR- 21

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures

with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

Until you are freed of indwelling sin, you will be imperfect...undeveloped...frail. Or as Paul says, "wretched"! Onxe you are freed from "the taint of sin" only then will your life measure with the life of God! You will be perfect in love even as He is perfect....

January 25, 2006

Hi Rob,

I was expecting that answer. I posted that for a reason.

The purpose of Paul's statements are to reveal that that no one is righteous and everyone is guilty of sin. Therefore by keeping the law no one will be justified. How can a sinful person become righteous by keeping the very law that points out their offence? It's like saying I just robbed a bank, but I will from this point on never steal again and I will keep all the laws, therefore I am justified. Well what about the offence, who's going to pay for that? I'd still be guilty of robbery right?

Paul says something interesting,Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

While I may have to bear the consequences of my actions I am justified freely by grace. That means I don't have to keep the law to earn justification there is another method of justification.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

So my sin is taken care of and I am not guilty before God and am justified by faith not works of the law. The manner in which I am justified is what Paul is talking about and that's why he says none seek after God etc... He is making it clear that no works from guilty sinners will ever justify them. Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So now the question remains, what then do we do with the law, is it of any use? Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Establish

2476 histemi {his'-tay-mee}

a prolonged form of a primary stao {stah'-o} (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); TDNT - 7:638,1082; v

AV - stand 116, set 11, establish 5, stand still 4, stand by 3, misc 17, vr stand 2; 158

1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set 1a) to bid to stand by, [set up] 1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin; 1a2) to place 1b) to make firm, fix establish 1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place 1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety 1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand 1b31) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything 1c) to set or place in a balance 1c1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed) 2) to stand 2a) to stand by or near 2a1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm 2a1a) of the foundation of a building 2b) to stand 2b1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared 2b2) to be of a steadfast mind 2b3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver

This is how we establish the law which is telling me that we are fulfilling it ourselves but this doesn't justify us because law keeping is not meant to justify. We are justified by faith. Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So now that Paul establishes that we are justified by faith and not by keeping the law he also asks, what about sin. If we don't keep the law for justification then what is the purpose of the law other than establishing it? The was no law once so there was no sin right? then if we say there's no law to keep now, then why not just sin since we're not justified by the law? Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Dead to sin Paul? How am I dead to sin? Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? So is it self that dies Paul?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, When will this happen Paul? that henceforth (from now on) we should not serve sin. But Paul how can I do that? Rom 6:7 he that is dead is freed from sin.

So from now on we are free from serving sin and so what exactly does that mean? Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

So you mean that I personally can do this by the Holy Spirit today, now?

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness , and the end everlasting life.

Rob, it's so clear that Paul is talking about how we are justified. He's not just saying that we are sinners for the sake of telling us that we can never be just or righteous in this life. We are justified by Christ and we witness or live the law (written in our hearts) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which establishes it and we reveal that we have a new master and that we have accepted the gift of salvation.

Any other way and you have the world still under sin without the hope of the cross of Christ.

Norman

Sign In

Not Under Law – Under Grace

Recommended Posts

Robert

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

LifeHiscost

Robert

Gerr

Gerr

Gerr

Gerr

benherndon

Clio

Gerr

Robert

LifeHiscost

Gerr

Clio

Robert

Robert

Norman Byers, N.D.

Robert

Norman Byers, N.D.

Robert

Robert

Norman Byers, N.D.

Robert

Robert

Norman Byers, N.D.

Join the conversation

Browse

Activity