Why do you pay tithe?

June 9, 2006

Let me make it clear from the outset I have no problem with people paying tithe. If this is what you believe God told you is right then so be it and I am not in anyway judging.

However I do not pay tithe. I pay freewill offerings to support the various guises of ministry. This isnt a fixed percentage but something I return to God.

My studies of tithe led me to believe that tithe was an integral part of the Jewish economy. In the main it was an agricultural return to support those of the tribe of Levi who had no land or anything they else they owned. Then there was a secondary agricultural tithe to be paid cyclically to the poor, widows and orphans. There were also exemptions to payment. If you had no land, property or didnt have enough cattle or grain to pay a tenth on.

In the new testament the levitical priesthood came to an end. Elders became the new leaders of the apostolic church and offerings were set aside for the missionary appeals of the apostles. So am at a loss as to why something like tithe still exists.

I am looking to understand why others do pay tithe. Are there still exemptions for poor, widows and orphans? Should elders be beneficiaries of tithe? Is it still a biblical mandate?

Thoughts?

June 9, 2006

David -

I, like you, do not pay tithe. I, like you, do give freely and cheerfully of ALL my resources to support the various guises of ministry, including financially.

During the last two years while my husband has been so ill, however, I modeled my giving after the giving you describe with exemptions for the poor, the widowed, the orphans etc. We definitely fell into the category of those who didn't have enough grain or cattle.

However, that said, we did always give what we had, when we had it. Whether it be agricultural (we had a garden to help mitigate financial costs), labor, or just sharing what we had, which often wasn't much. Occasionally, when Abba really blessed, we had a little extra money, and it almost always found it's way into a needier person's pocket, a love offering at church or an anonymous donation to a struggling ministry.

I do not pay tithe for all the reasons you have stated, and because of the manipulative way the exhortations are spoken to engender guilt for not paying tithe.

If someone were to stand up in the pulpit and say we are short of the funds needed to forward to the conference, the NAD, the women's ministries, or whatever, I would gladly add finances as Abba led me.

But I am not a member of the SDA denomination, do not attend a specific church regularly, and do want to ensure that when I give, I am supporting what Abba wants supported.

It is all bound up with my belief that we are coming to the end of the church age, a time in the closing stages of history when denominations as they exist today, including the SDA denomination, will eventually no longer be on Abba's side in this war. I will not support in anyway, but especially financially, anyone or anything that does not stand specifically, solely, totally, for Him according to the instructions of the Bible.

I am a member of Ed's described church invisible. I recognize the overlap, and that the churches visible and invisible are not mutually exclusive. And it is for that reason that I still give freely in love offerings as well as to specific needs within the corporate environment of the SDA denomination when I choose to worship there.

June 9, 2006

Tithe paying is clearly a personal issue between the individual and God. Therfore, it is up to them to determine the various aspects as to how they support the work of God on this planet.

June 10, 2006

The Bible reads very explicitly to me.

[:"red"]Will a man rob God?

Yet you have robbed Me!

But you say,

'In what way have we robbed You?'

In tithes and offerings. Mal 3:8 NKJ [/]

If you believe in OT offerings, why not the tithe?

Gerry

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:

I do not pay tithe for all the reasons you have stated, and because of the manipulative way the exhortations are spoken to engender guilt for not paying tithe.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:But I am not a member of the SDA denomination, do not attend a specific church regularly, and do want to ensure that when I give, I am supporting what Abba wants supported.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:denominations as they exist today, including the SDA denomination, will eventually no longer be on Abba's side in this war.

Wow Clio, you really love the SDA church don't you?

I have to ask, why are you here if you dislike the church so much? Most of us here are SDA, so does it ever cross your mind that your comments may offend some of us?

[i understand you Sid, but If I left that sentence in place, the discussion would simply degenerate. We prefer that such language not be used here in CA. I know that some will jump on me and say I am inconsistent. But, I removed it--GM.]

Yes I know this is off topic.

June 10, 2006

Clio's comment does not offend me at all. She is expressing her opinion frankly and not being hypocritical. I like that. I am a SDA, born in it and raised in it, I love my denomination. I welcom this kind of comment from outsiders. Maybe there are thing or two to learn from such a comment.

Won

June 10, 2006

No worries Gregory.

Yes whbae, I know she is expressing her opinion, as am I, as are you.

June 10, 2006

Hi David,

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Tithes is not of Jewish origin although they may have tithed. Where did Abram get the idea of Tithing? Although it is not mentioned we can make a pretty good guess. It came from God. Else why would Abram give tithes to the man of God, the priest, Melchizedek.

Sincerely,

Norman

June 10, 2006

It's interesting that the Baptist church I go to on Sundays also believe in tithe-paying.

Gerry

June 10, 2006

A pastor I heard once said that he doesn't give tithe to God, he returns tithe to God.

June 10, 2006

Whatever....

Gerry

June 10, 2006

Why whatever? I thought it was a great statement. It's God's to begin with, he's just returning it to God.

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Sid said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:

I do not pay tithe for all the reasons you have stated, and because of the manipulative way the exhortations are spoken to engender guilt for not paying tithe.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:But I am not a member of the SDA denomination, do not attend a specific church regularly, and do want to ensure that when I give, I am supporting what Abba wants supported.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:denominations as they exist today, including the SDA denomination, will eventually no longer be on Abba's side in this war.

Wow Clio, you really love the SDA church don't you?

Actually, I do like the SDA church very much. I believe most of what it teaches, but I do have some serious enough differences that I would not represent myself as SDA because it would not accurately represent what the church teaches.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I have to ask, why are you here if you dislike the church so much? Most of us here are SDA, so does it ever cross your mind that your comments may offend some of us?

I hope that I am not offending anyone, but if I have done so, I am sorry. But I will not lie about what I believe, and the conclusions I have come to with much heartache, study, prayer, struggle, more prayer, and finally peace.

I have friends here, I hope, and there are many here who are in my prayers on a daily, and sometimes hourly, basis as the Holy Spirit impresses upon my heart.

The SDA denomination is the church of my youth, my memories by and large are happy ones, and it was only dissatisfaction and need to search that took me out of the church to begin with.

When I fully surrendered to the Father and my Bridegroom, I committed to follow wherever They lead, even when it's uncomfortable, and results in the kinds of responses you have given me tonight.

I am settled in who I am in Abba's Family, and if I am wrong in this, then I am wrong. And He will change my mind as needed. But I do know this. It is NOT a salvific issue.

I am Blood Covenant sealed by True Jesus Blood, and I live my accordingly. My most fervent prayer, no matter the cost, is that He purify me in His fire, burning all dross from me, that I might always and forever be a more perfect reflection of Him.

He will never fail to answer that prayer.

June 10, 2006

I know you're on a journey and you're obviously very close to God.

I was harsh and uncalled for <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I apologize Clio. I'm glad you're here. You have a lot to offer.

June 10, 2006

Apology happily accepted, Sid.

I know that what I say at times strikes at some dearly held beliefs of many. I know that there are those who would deem me a heretic as well. It is costly, at times, to say some of what I say. But I would fail in my duty if I failed to speak.

I sincerely hope, and pray daily, that what I teach or speak is not false. I wear the belt of Truth from Ephesians 6 each day, and ask that what I speak, think, believe, and take into my heart and mind be only Abba Father's truth. I beg for Abba's Wisdom, and His Truth only.

The time is fast approaching when all will know whose interpretations are correct, and whose were built on conjecture, half-truths, and errors. I pray that if I am wrong in anything important, that Jesus will change my heart, belief and understanding before it becomes critical so that I am ready when it is time to stand before a Holy Abba, without my Kinsman Redeemer as Intercessor.

We are in the final few years of earth's history. I do not ask that any believe me, just because I say so, but to test all against the Bible, to watch and pray, and be studying diligently to understand how prophecy is unfolding before our very eyes. And when events come to pass, to recognize the confirming witness and make plans accordingly.

Were it not so urgent, I assure you, I would be keeping my more controversial beliefs to myself. I am a peace-keeper, I would do almost anything to avoid a conflict. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

June 10, 2006

My experience has been this, others may differ... i have posted similar things other places.

IN the 25 years that have been a member of the adventist Church, I have know those who tithe and those who do not.

My experience has been this

Those who tithe, seem to have a stable Christian experience, and seem to be significantly more financially secure after all these years.

Just my experience

Stan

June 10, 2006

Thanks Clio.

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:

It is all bound up with my belief that we are coming to the end of the church age, a time in the closing stages of history when denominations as they exist today, including the SDA denomination, will eventually no longer be on Abba's side in this war.

A few years back, while driving to church one Sabbath morning, I heard Harold Camping say something quite similar about the various denominations. As I recall, he was saying that God is calling people out of the organized churches. Recently, one of my Bible study contacts shared with me an email she had received from someone who was believed to have the prophetic gift, who said that God is calling the 'forerunners' to come out of the churches.

Well, very interesting. However, a 'denomination' is simply an organized group of people who share common beliefs and mission. Organization is an important part of God's plan for His work. The 'remnant' is the group of people who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." It would be consistent with God's way of working throughout history, for the remnant to be organized, to share common Bible beliefs and have a common sense of mission. Those are the identifying marks of a 'denomination.' Nothing wrong with that. According to the Bible teachings, the SDA church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy. By definition, then, it is the last church. Is there worldliness in the church? It is described as 'laodicean.' Will God purify His church? The Bible says that He will. Not to raise up another group, but to purify the remnant. Paying tithe into the Adventist church, which I do faithfully, is a vote of confidence in God's leadership of His church.

Dave

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

Tithe paying is clearly a personal issue between the individual and God. Therefore, it is up to them to determine the various aspects as to how they support the work of God on this planet.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

Tithe paying is clearly a personal issue between the individual and God. Therfore, it is up to them to determine the various aspects as to how they support the work of God on this planet.

I would like to say your comment is true of all God's counsels. Else we have freewill only when it fits into other than our decided desire. This is entirely consistent with___

[:"red"] "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." [/] Phil 2:13 KJV

Sometimes we need to be reminded, God abides with us at our invitation and only leaves when our behaviour clearly indicates we no longer wish His overrulling presence. Then, of course, we are left to accept the sure results of life without an Intercessor.

[:"red"] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever-- " [/] John 14:16 AMP

[:"red"] "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" [/] 1 John 2:1 KJV

Promises given only to those who accept Him for what He wishes to be to us as His children, and for our best good.

When young in the faith, I gave tithe for the promises given with it.

[:"red"] "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes," says the LORD of hosts.

" [/] Mal 3:10,11 NASB

While that motive is still true, as God wouldn't have included the promise if He hadn't wished it to motivate, because He has continued to grant grace even during times of poor stewardship, I've since learned my soul is blessed even more when offering the return of tithe irregardless of expected returns.

The promise has yet to be fulfilled in all it's fulness, but I imagine it is not long in delaying.

[:"red"] "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." [/] Hebrews 10:37 KJV

Blessings!!

June 10, 2006

@ Gerry

Do you return tithe because you believe the warning to both the Levites and Israel in Malachi is still considered robbery if you dont pay it today?

@ Stan

Just for clarity. Is your reason for returning tithe based on financial stability? Do you believe that tithe paying is an integral part of Christian stability?

@ All

Would you expect someone on welfare/low income to return a tithe?

If someone is not a member of a church/denomination and is a member of a small group/fellowship to whom is the tithe returned?

Is it important to be concerned as to how the tithe is used?

What do you expect your tithe to be used for?

June 10, 2006

Just tacking on here with a few comments - SDAs are not the only Christian group who pay tithe. The Mormons use the tithe collected for new church buildings, I believe. They do not have a paid clergy - at least in the past, their only paid officials were the building supervisors for new churches.

I was brought up to pay tithe, and was doing so in my student days when I was flatting/rooming with a girl who was a new convert to the LDS church. She knew I paid tithe, and decided she would do so too. Neither of us were very well endowed financially at that time. Her comment after a few weeks was interesting, that her money was going further and she was not feeling any lack.

Maybe tithe paying carries its own 'reward' in encouraging more careful use of money. Whether there is a special blessing from God is something I guess we each decide for ourselves.

June 10, 2006

Re: "Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gregory Matthews said:

Tithe paying is clearly a personal issue between the individual and God. Therfore, it is up to them to determine the various aspects as to how they support the work of God on this planet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to say your comment is true of all God's counsels. Else we have freewill only when it fits into other than our decided desire. This is entirely consistent with___"

Leon:

Of course your response to my statement is literally true. But, I will suggest that the payment of tithe fits into a catagory that differes from other guidance that God gives us.

God tells not to give false witness. Yes, on some levels it is subject to one's understanding. But, in many ways it is pretty clear, and has what some might say are rigid standards.

The same is true for murder, stealing, and much more.

But the payment of tithe is different.

First, in the society in which we live, the guidelines as to where that tithe is paid are not as clear and rigid as some people would wish them to be.

People today who pay tithe may pay it to the local Conference, another Conference, the local Chruch, the local school, or directely to other agencies such as 3-ABN, the VOP, etc.

Second, the same is true for the purpose that tithe is paid. Some beleive that SDA school teachers should be paid from tithe, others do not. Some beleive that tithe should be used to support the local church janitor. Others do not.

Third, those who pay tithe, generally believe that tithe is paid on the "increase," and not gross income. I.e. If I as the ownere of a business have a gross income of $1,000,000, and after deduction of the costs of producing that income, a pre-tax profit of $75,000 I likely pay my tithe on that $75,000, and not on the $1,000,000. But, God leaves it to the individual to determine how that increase is determined. All who work with people know that people figrue it differently.

So, my statement related to the fact that individuals who pay tithe differ as to where they pay it, the purpose for which it is used, and the manner in which it is figured.

I do not believe that God calls upon me to attempt to impose upon other people my understanding in those areas. That is between the individual and God, in a manner that differs in some ways from other guidance from God.

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Those who tithe, seem to have a stable Christian experience, and seem to be significantly more financially secure after all these years.

But which is the cause and which is the effect?

Maybe financially secure stable Christian's are more able and more willing to pay tithe...

/Bevin

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

David_McQueen said:

@ Gerry

Do you return tithe because you believe the warning to both the Levites and Israel in Malachi is still considered robbery if you dont pay it today?

[:"blue"]David, can God make it any clearer than what He said? [/]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

@ All

Would you expect someone on welfare/low income to return a tithe?

[:"blue"]Yes! When it comes to the tithe, I believe the Bible makes no distinction between the rich and the poor. [/]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If someone is not a member of a church/denomination and is a member of a small group/fellowship to whom is the tithe returned?

[:"blue"]You are now having a glimpse into the problems of having no organization. Our pioneers had to grapple with similar questions and were forced to come up with an organization. [/] <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Is it important to be concerned as to how the tithe is used?

[:"blue"] If it is God's and therefore sacred, we should be. Profanation of that which is sacred is not looked on kindly in Scripture.[/]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

What do you expect your tithe to be used for?

[:"blue"]In the OT it was reserved for those who were given the responsibility of handling matters in God's house. I read in the Review that this is being re-examined. [/]

Gerry

June 10, 2006

Bevin, your response to Stan, which is a valid question, assumes something that I do not see in Stan's comment.

As I read Stan's comments, Ithink that he is including people who may in his understanding traveled from a lack of financial security to financial security, and paid tithe during that transition. Perhaps, Stan did not assume such in his comment. But, that is what I read in it.

In my own observation, I have seen people go from financial insecurity to financial security, to a period of financial insecurity, and back to financial securiy again. I have seen them pay tithe during that entire process.

Tithe paying may have financial benefits (I think that Malachi 3 suggests such.). But, tithe paying does not prevent people from a period of financial stress, either because of their own choices, or because of factors outside of themselves.

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