Why do you pay tithe?

June 16, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:Let me ask you again as I have asked you before and refused to answer, does a growing/maturing Christian continue to fornicate, steal, murder, bow to idols, etc. etc.?

List those "etc. etc." and not just the ones you manage to keep....

I have committed adultery at least once today [see Matt 5:28]. Last week I murdered someone [verse 22]. I am not perfect, as God is perfect, [verse 48] so I've come short there too. I am glad that I am not under law....

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:

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Robert said: Anything that I experience in the realm of Christian living will be between me and My redeemer. He is my pope....Hence, Gerry, you can't be my conscience...you can't be the Holy Spirit and you can't be a fruit inspector because you can't read the heart.

When Gerry asked whether you are free to break the law, this is your answer? "None of your business, it's between me and God?" <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'll pray for you.

"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."

Since you are "under the jurisdiction of the law" and since you just transgressed the 9th commandment, the law says that you must die! Sure you want to be under the law?

Rob

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:The problem is that if someone were to actually believe your statements, then they would be tempted to say "well I'm not under the law, I'm above the law" as an excuse for their sin, rather than have repentance for the sin.

I've got a suggestion: Why don't you concern yourself with your own walk instead of beating others over the head with your book of rules?

The law points out sin, yet the law is much more than just 10 brief commandments. Jesus expanded upon the law throughout the NT. There's nothing wrong with the law...it's good...it's righteous, but for sinners to be under law means death! The law isn't in the business of forgiving.

Hence I am thankful that Jesus answered all the demands of the law. He obeyed the law perfect....He died its demand of justice. He was raised in a perfect, sinless humanity. And I was "in Him." Hence the law can't touch me.

Does the law not have any function this side of grace? No....It reminds me that I am a sinner....It points me to Christ's righteousness. By faith I acknowledge my sins and I pray for delivery from my nature in those areas that I fall short. But there are other sins that I am yet unaware.

I am growing, but not to be saved. I am growing because I see a God who loves me more than Himself. He lives to serve and in return I want him to take my nature, but I find my surrender lacking from time to time and my faith fluctuating. Yet I know He loves me....

God's looks at the intents of my heart....He knows I am relying on His righteousness for my ticket to heaven. Yes, by His grace I am growing into harmony with law, yet I also realize that I am nothing like Him and He fulfilled the law.

Rob

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:I've got a suggestion: Why don't you concern yourself with your own walk instead of beating others over the head with your book of rules?

The 10 commandments are a book of rules now? You're welcome to ignore me if you want to. Why do I concern myself? Because you're not the only person here, you're not only person reading this. I don't want anyone else to fall for what you're saying. So I'll say it again:

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Robert said: I am free from under law, period.

I am not under obligation to the law for I am not under it.

The problem is that if someone were to actually believe your statements, then they would be tempted to say "well I'm not under the law, I'm above the law" as an excuse for their sin, rather than have repentance for the sin.

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:

The problem is that if someone were to actually believe your statements, then they would be tempted to say "well I'm not under the law, I'm above the law" as an excuse for their sin, rather than have repentance for the sin.

Again (and you are not hearing) the law doesn't forgive! It doesn't allow repentance. Let me give you EGW:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-01

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

June 16, 2006

May I ask what point you are making by quoting EGW here? Did I say the law forgives? No I did not. Only God forgives!

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

June 16, 2006

At least Robert gives credit when he quotes EDW.

He quotes and paraphrases Jack Sequeira ad nauseam without any references at all.

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

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And "sinning" isn't obeying, is it? So why do you call yourself a commandment keeper?

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:Let me ask you again as I have asked you before and refused to answer, does a growing/maturing Christian continue to fornicate, steal, murder, bow to idols, etc. etc.?

List those "etc. etc." and not just the ones you manage to keep....

I have committed adultery at least once today [see Matt 5:28]. Last week I murdered someone [verse 22]. I am not perfect, as God is perfect, [verse 48] so I've come short there too. I am glad that I am not under law....

[:"blue"]Therefore it's OK to do ALL those sinful abominations and still remain in a state of salvation, huh? For you, Christ died to save you in your sins? [/]

Gerry

June 16, 2006

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Again (and you are not hearing) the law doesn't forgive!

[:"blue"]Talk about someone who is deaf! Takes one to know one. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> [/]

Gerry

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:

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Sid said:The problem is that if someone were to actually believe your statements, then they would be tempted to say "well I'm not under the law, I'm above the law" as an excuse for their sin, rather than have repentance for the sin.

I've got a suggestion: Why don't you concern yourself with your own walk instead of beating others over the head with your book of rules?

The law points out sin, yet the law is much more than just 10 brief commandments. Jesus expanded upon the law throughout the NT. There's nothing wrong with the law...it's good...it's righteous, but for sinners to be under law means death! The law isn't in the business of forgiving.

[:"blue"] So what's the point of having law to point out sin if you can be saved without being condemned ofr not getting rid of the sin?

What's the point of having traffic lights, stop signs, and speed limits if there are no penalties for disregarding them?[/]

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Hence I am thankful that Jesus answered all the demands of the law. He obeyed the law perfect....He died its demand of justice. He was raised in a perfect, sinless humanity. And I was "in Him." Hence the law can't touch me.

Does the law not have any function this side of grace? No....It reminds me that I am a sinner....It points me to Christ's righteousness.

[:"blue"]And Christ's righteousness just covers me up in my filthy self pronounces me clean without actually cleaning me up? What kind of a lying god do you have? [/]

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By faith I acknowledge my sins and I pray for delivery from my nature in those areas that I fall short.

[:"blue"]Acknowledge the sin, pray for deliverance, but keep on stealing, fornicating, murdering & lying? [/]

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But there are other sins that I am yet unaware.

[:"blue"]If I'm not required to forsake the sins I know, what's the point of the Holy Spirit bringing to my attention the sins I do not know? [/]

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I am growing, but not to be saved. I am growing because I see a God who loves me more than Himself.

[:"blue"]You are growing but yet continueing to the same old life? Being purged/cleaned up while wallowing in the same filth? Growing taller but same stature?

Ohhhhh, Robert!!! [/]

Gerry

June 16, 2006

"...a tree is known by its fruit." Mt 12:33 NKJ

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

He who says 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 Jn 2:3,4 NKJ.

Gerry

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:

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Sid said:

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Robert said: Legalism!

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31.

Now I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

1. It does not agree with the context.

2. It does not agree historically.

3. It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually. Paul is not dealing in this passage which we have covered with the doctrine of Sanctification. He is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically. What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

1. The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.

2. Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:

And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:

The soul who sins is the one who will die.

And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

So there are two requirements that the law demands from each one of us. If you fail to fulfil those two requirements, you cannot establish the law, the law will condemn you, you’re still under the curse. But in Christ the law has been established. Christ met on behalf of all people the two demands. By His perfect life, He has met the positive demand of the law, which the Bible calls the righteousness of the law. And, by His death, He has met the justice of the law, so that, in the doing and the dying of Christ, the law has been established. That is what Paul is saying in verse 31. I’ll come back to it.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, let’s go to Romans 3. How then does Paul use the word “faith” in verse 31 of chapter 3? Well, the context tells us here that he is discussing the doctrine of Justification by Faith. He has told us in verse 28 that the righteousness of God which justifies us by faith is apart from the law. That means our keeping of the law does not contribute towards the righteousness which justifies us. But the question in verse 31 is, “What about God’s righteousness? Does God’s righteousness satisfy the law?” In other words, is God righteous when He justifies us sinners? Can His righteousness stand up with the law in the judgment? The answer is yes.

In other words, what Paul is defending here is, once again, the legal framework of the atonement. That’s why, if we destroy the legal framework of the atonement, which some of our theologians are trying to do, we have destroyed one of the key passages, one of the key teachings of the New Testament.

[:"Red"]Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?

“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”

And God will say, “Who told you that?”

“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”

And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”[/]

The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me,[:"Red"] “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”

The law says, “I did not ask that question.”

“Well, I kept most of the law.”

The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”

“Well, I goofed up a few times.”

And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”

But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”

The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”

“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”

But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”

And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”

The law will say, “When did you die?”

And I'll say, "I died in Christ."

And the law will say, "Welcome...come on in!"

[:"blue"]The more faulty the theory/reasoning, the more lengthy and complicated the explanation!!! [/]

Gerry

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:And "sinning" isn't obeying, is it? So why do you call yourself a commandment keeper?

The fact that we are all sinners doesn't void the law. Jesus forgives sinners, and saves us from our sins, not through our sins!

June 16, 2006

Robert I am concerned about you. I am detecting loose associations and tangential thought processes in what you are saying. Are you okay? I'm wondering if you are having multiple microinfarcts or some type of early stage dementia. If you're not feeling well, please see somebody!

June 16, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:Let me ask you again as I have asked you before and refused to answer, does a growing/maturing Christian continue to fornicate, steal, murder, bow to idols, etc. etc.?

List those "etc. etc." and not just the ones you manage to keep....

I have committed adultery at least once today [see Matt 5:28]. Last week I murdered someone [verse 22]. I am not perfect, as God is perfect, [verse 48] so I've come short there too. I am glad that I am not under law....

[:"blue"]Therefore it's OK to do ALL those sinful abominations and still remain in a state of salvation, huh? For you, Christ died to save you in your sins? [/]

Gerry

Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Why did Christ have to save us? Do our sins condemn us? No! Then what? The law! Christ came to save us from the curse of the law. Read Gal 3:13

June 16, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:The more faulty the theory/reasoning, the more lengthy and complicated the explanation!!! Gerry

Just because you say it ain't so doesn't mean it ain't so! Disprove it! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dancingman2.gif" alt="" />

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:

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Robert said:And "sinning" isn't obeying, is it? So why do you call yourself a commandment keeper?

The fact that we are all sinners doesn't void the law. Jesus forgives sinners, and saves us from our sins, not through our sins!

You just broke the 9th commandment again. I never said the law was made void! You keep missing the mark (and I am not kidding).

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:

Robert I am concerned about you. I am detecting loose associations and tangential thought processes in what you are saying. Are you okay? I'm wondering if you are having multiple microinfarcts or some type of early stage dementia. If you're not feeling well, please see somebody!

Because you are unable to defend your position you have decided to make it personal. Be nice....

June 16, 2006

T.O.

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Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Galatians 6:1,2

Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:Because you are unable to defend your position you have decided to make it personal. Be nice....

I was being serious Robert.

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:

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Robert said:Because you are unable to defend your position you have decided to make it personal. Be nice....

I was being serious Robert.

June 16, 2006

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Amelia said:Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

This doesn't deny that we aren't measuring up! It says, "If" someone "IS CAUGHT" in a sin....

Do you know everyone sins? No, but if you caught someone in a sin then you should restore them gently. That's all, no more...no less.

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:

so I've come short there too. I am glad that I am not under law....

You may not be under the Law, Robert, but if you continue to practice those things you will meet the sentence required until justice is satisfied. While the blood of Jesus does satisfy the needs of those trusting in His grace, only those who elect to receive the victory over such deeds, offered through grace, will continue to receive grace.

[:"red"] "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. " [/] 2 Corinthians 5:10 NASB

[:"red"] "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. " [/] 1 John 5:4 NASB

June 16, 2006

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Robert said:

I am growing because I see a God who loves me more than Himself. He lives to serve and in return I want him to take my nature, but I find my surrender lacking from time to time and my faith fluctuating. Yet I know He loves me....

God's looks at the intents of my heart....He knows I am relying on His righteousness for my ticket to heaven. Yes, by His grace I am growing into harmony with law, yet I also realize that I am nothing like Him and He fulfilled the law.

Rob

Robert,

I believe that testimony is a wonderful testimony to the enabling power of Jesus Christ for the lives of those who have accepted the full enabling power, undeserved, to be given to the sinner.

While I agree, none of us are perfectly in tune to God's will, it is important that others striving to reach the ideal Jesus has revealed, not be given the impression they are condemned because they don't match up to your understanding of God's will for their lives.

A comment I read one time seems to be appropriate. [:"brown"] "God does not speak through the conscience of one person for another." [/] If it is your conscience that hears our Father's voice condemn for making an effort to keep the Law, to the best of their ability expecting commensurate reward, why do you feel it necessary to ensure they know they are condemned for striving to keep the Law, even though God points out He will enable them to do that and will reward them for it.

[:"red"] "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. " [/] John 3:17 NASB

[:"red"] "Evil pursueth sinners, And good recompenseth the righteous. " [/] Proverbs 13:21 YLT

[:"red"] "But love your enemies and be kind and do good [doing favors so that someone derives benefit from them] and lend, expecting and hoping for nothing in return but considering nothing as lost and despairing of no one; and then your recompense (your reward) will be great (rich, strong, intense, and abundant), and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind and charitable and good to the ungrateful and the selfish and wicked.

" [/] Luke 6:35 AMP

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