Why do you pay tithe?

June 10, 2006

Are you saying paying/returning tithe is an option? Is the command not to steal an option?

Gerry

June 10, 2006

My experience has been poverty on welfare to a good income. When I came back to church I was getting my life back together. In the mid to late 90's I sold my sports car paid most of my debts and went back to school. I had no savings, (prodigal son style)I was receiving $500.00 to pay for rent and food from welfare. I had little money for anything else. I paid tithe and to make a long story short I have been blessed.

Norman

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

David_McQueen said:

@ Stan

Just for clarity. Is your reason for returning tithe based on financial stability? Do you believe that tithe paying is an integral part of Christian stability?

@ All

Would you expect someone on welfare/low income to return a tithe?

HI David..... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The basis is not for financial stability. This is just an observation that I have had over the years. It was initially pointed out to me an experienced pastor. He also told me that at Church Business meetings, that people that make the most comments on everything often never support the Church financially.

Others may have a different experience.

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

In my own observation, I have seen people go from financial insecurity to financial security, to a period of financial insecurity, and back to financial securiy again. I have seen them pay tithe during that entire process.

I would not be shocked to read that Job tithed. There is something about tithing that makes a statement of ownership of our lives by God.

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bevin said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Those who tithe, seem to have a stable Christian experience, and seem to be significantly more financially secure after all these years.

But which is the cause and which is the effect?

Maybe financially secure stable Christian's are more able and more willing to pay tithe...

/Bevin

This is almost like the Chicken vs the egg <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is just something about tithing that changes things.

June 10, 2006

There seems to be a transforming event in peoples lives when they give. Not just tithe.

June 10, 2006

Cheerfully giving makes all the difference. Those who give with regret, out of guilt, do so at the displeasure of the Lord.

June 10, 2006

Re: "Are you saying paying/returning tithe is an option?"

No.

I am saying that there are some aspects of tithe paying that should be left to the individual and God.

People who pound others regarding tithe paying often focus on the place and/or purpose of the payment. They will tell others that they are not truely paying tithe becasue they either pay it at a specific place, or for a specific purpose. That should be left to the leding of the Holy Spirit.

As I recall Clio has been involved in this discussion. She tells us that she pays tithe. Perhaps she does not pay it in the same form or manner that I beleive to be appropriate. So what? I am willing to commend her for doing what she is doing. If she is not correct in some area, I am confident that the Holy Spirit will lead her into what is correct. I.e. I do not believe that I should pound her for doing it in a manner that differs from what I do.

That is what I am saying.

Clio, I hope you did not mind that I named you in my example. But, as I remember you have posted information regarding your payment of tithe. As you posted it, I felt I could use your name.

Peace,

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bevin said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Those who tithe, seem to have a stable Christian experience, and seem to be significantly more financially secure after all these years.

But which is the cause and which is the effect?

Maybe financially secure stable Christian's are more able and more willing to pay tithe...

/Bevin

[:"blue"]If one believes what God promised, and tithe is returned for the right reasons, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind which is the cause and the effect. That is not to say that there is not a devil taunting God with the same premises as he did about Job, i.e. 1) believers serve God only because of the goodies they receive from Him, 2) believers will sacrifice their faith in God in order to preserve life and what they have, and that God may allow the same disasters as happened to Job inorder to prove the devil wrong. [/]

Gerry

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "Are you saying paying/returning tithe is an option?"

No.

I am saying that there are some aspects of tithe paying that should be left to the individual and God.

[:"blue"]I am refering to the act of paying/returning tithe itself. Is this, in your view, optional? [/]<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

People who pound others regarding tithe paying often focus on the place and/or purpose of the payment. They will tell others that they are not truely paying tithe becasue they either pay it at a specific place, or for a specific purpose.

[:"blue"]That I find disgusting and self-serving. [/]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

That should be left to the leding of the Holy Spirit.[/quote[

[:"blue"]I agree there are aspects of tithe-paying that should be left to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. [/] <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

As I recall Clio has been involved in this discussion. She tells us that she pays tithe. Perhaps she does not pay it in the same form or manner that I beleive to be appropriate. So what? I am willing to commend her for doing what she is doing. If she is not correct in some area, I am confident that the Holy Spirit will lead her into what is correct. I.e. I do not believe that I should pound her for doing it in a manner that differs from what I do.

That is what I am saying.

Clio, I hope you did not mind that I named you in my example. But, as I remember you have posted information regarding your payment of tithe. As you posted it, I felt I could use your name.

Peace,

[:"blue"]My recollection of what she said was that she does NOT pay tithe but has dedicated everything to God's disposal. [/]

Gerry

June 10, 2006

When y'all are talking about returning tithe to God, you aren't REALLY talking about returning it to God, are you? []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/] Isn't more that you're giving money for purposes that you or the church decides is important?

Seems like otherwise it makes it sound like church = God... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

rudywoofs said:

When y'all are talking about returning tithe to God, you aren't REALLY talking about returning it to God, are you? []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/] Isn't more that you're giving money for purposes that you or the church decides is important?

Seems like otherwise it makes it sound like church = God... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Good point! Besides the passage used by most churches is nothing short of a scare tactic. Here it is:

Mal 3:7 From the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances [laws], and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.....

First of all look at the language: "Ye are cursed with a curse"....That's a big clue especially after you read Paul:

Gal 3:10 "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just by faith shall live."

I'll have to see a reason that comes from love, not law. You see if I pay tithe because I am afraid of God my motive is all wrong.

That reminds me of a Baptist church my wife visited with a friend. The Pastor asked for money for such and such. When he didn't get a good response he preached damnation and hell...you know, God's going to get you. So they whipped out their checkbooks. Sick, real sick, huh?

Rob

June 11, 2006

The body of Christ IS the church, of which HE is the head.

Gerry

June 11, 2006

"If you LOVE me, you will keep my commandments." Jn 14:15

"For this is the LOVE of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are NOT burdensome." 1 Jn 5:3.

Gerry

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:"If you LOVE me, you will keep my commandments." Jn 14:15

I guess this is in reply to "I'll have to see a reason that comes from love, not law." Right?

Rob

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:"If you LOVE me, you will keep my commandments." Jn 14:15

Let's say that John is talking about the moral law (the context doesn't fully agree).

Okay, but now notice Jesus doesn't say, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments or too bad for you." Of course Jesus would like us to come into closer harmony with the principle of His law.

Given that, the law can be broken down into two commands:

1] Love to God

2] Love your neighbor

Okay, now tell me where in the first four commandments does it say to give God 10%? It doesn't!

Yes, the 8th commandment says, "You shall not steal"! But what's the context? Right...loving my neighbor!

Then where is the rule that says pay tithe since it isn't in the moral law (10 CC)?

Leviticus 27:30 “All the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the Lord’s; it is holy to the Lord.....34 These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the people of Israel on Mount Sinai.

Please note that the command to tithe is found in "the book of the law".

Rob

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "Are you saying paying/returning tithe is an option?"

No.

I am saying that there are some aspects of tithe paying that should be left to the individual and God.

People who pound others regarding tithe paying often focus on the place and/or purpose of the payment. They will tell others that they are not truely paying tithe becasue they either pay it at a specific place, or for a specific purpose. That should be left to the leding of the Holy Spirit.

As I recall Clio has been involved in this discussion. She tells us that she pays tithe. Perhaps she does not pay it in the same form or manner that I beleive to be appropriate. So what? I am willing to commend her for doing what she is doing. If she is not correct in some area, I am confident that the Holy Spirit will lead her into what is correct. I.e. I do not believe that I should pound her for doing it in a manner that differs from what I do.

That is what I am saying.

Clio, I hope you did not mind that I named you in my example. But, as I remember you have posted information regarding your payment of tithe. As you posted it, I felt I could use your name.

Peace,

You are very welcome to use any thing I have posted in the past.

I did not make those statements in this particular thread, as I felt that the initial question referred to the specific writing of a check for the 10% of financial compensation that most refer to as "tithe".

Let me be explicit, so there is no misunderstanding.

I give of everything that I have. Money, time, possessions, emotions, prayer, faith and knowledge. I do not do it as a traditional 10% tithe. I give as the need is presented, and consistently. It is always more than 10%.

When I put money in the offering basket or in the love gift basket, it is often the last money I have until payday. It is everything there is. It is set aside in advance, and then I pay the bills and buy the groceries.

When I give of my time, it is never grudgingly, and I give whether it is convenient or not.

When I give of my substance, it is the same as what I would reserve for my family, only I don't reserve any of it, I just give.

I make no distinction between tithing and giving because all I have belongs to Abba, He gave it to me in the first place. If He needs me to give/share/add to the portion of someone else, then in His estimation they need it worse than I do.

I have found that when there is something coming up, where I will need "extra" whatever, He always provides it. When it's money, then I hold on to it until I understand clearly why Abba placed it in my stewardship. It might be for me... but then again, it might not.

Once, someone moved by our plight while my husband was so ill, sent us some money. It turned out I did need some of it, but there was some left over. I held on to it, until Abba made it plain why there was extra. It went to someone in greater need than I, and it demonstrated clearly an answer to their prayer.

June 11, 2006

Thanks for your responses on this, as interesting and varied as they have been. Like all such contentious issues there are many approaches and various interpretations of scriptures so allow me to share mine.

The Tenth Background

My simple understanding is this. The concept of paying a tenth of a possession whether as a one of to a king (Abraham: Gen 14) or as the writer of Heb 7 says, "a tenth of the plunder!" or as a condition for safety (Jacob: Gen 28:20-22). This was something that the Bible mentioned only twice before Sinai.

Tithe for Israel

Then at Sinai the initial tithe is returned as scripture says as an inheritance to the Levites (Numbers 18) Of the tithe given to all Levites the present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord's offering to the ministering Levites for consumption. This is clearly an agricultral tithe as shown in Lev 27 and when Christ rebukes the Pharisees who tithe mint and cumin, in the widow's mite story. Secondly there is a annual tithe to be consumed by Israel (Deut 14) and finally a third tithe every three years for orphans, widows and strangers. Additional to this you could not pay tithe unless you were a

farmer/landowner. So again the poor were exempt from paying tithe.

So my position is if the bible states an agricultural tithe then why has it now changed? Also if we are following a biblical mandate then why is the first tithe is to be returned then why are the other two not returned as well? Why are even the poor supposed to pay tithe if they have no money?

The Malachi Rebuke

In isolation many people quote the text in Mal 3:8-10, but often fail to see the nature of the overall rebuke in Malachi starting first with the priests in chapter 2. The nation of Israel and the priests were rebuked for not returning a tithe AND offerings. So the whole point of benevolence was being missed. Israel were not storing up for the future for the Levites or for the nation as a whole.

This was not just a basic tithe but a tithe that would be put in the storehouse for future use as determined by Hezekiah (2 Chron 31:3-12) and by Nehehmiah (Neh 10:37, 38) In fact the whole nation were cursed if they didn't return the agricultural tithe but if they did a blessing on their land is promised. "Devourers are rebuked, fruits of the ground are not destroyed and the vines are maintained, and all other nations would call Israel blessed". So then how do we take a specific rebuke and promise of agricultural greatness to Israel based on one of three tithes then apply that as a proof text basis for returning the modern tithe? Are cursed if we dont return a tithe to the storehouse?

So other than the two exceptions returning tithe was in the main implemented to support the Levis who worked in the Temple, and then secondarily for a feast for Israel and lastly to provide every third year for the widows, orphans and poor. I can understand the principle of such returning but would ask why only one section of these commands would be observed and not others as a principle of tithing? Are we still cursed if we do not such a thing? Or do we just take the parts of scripture we like and ignore the whole context?

(Edit: Another interesting footnote is that Jews no longer paid tithe after the destruction of Jerusalem in recognition that the Levitical priesthood has effectively been wiped out)

June 11, 2006

New Testament Giving

Over to the new testament, the only real comments on tithing are

1) When Christ rebukes the Pharisees with their pompous giving of mint and cumin

2) When the Pharisee boasts at the wailing wall about how better he was than the lowly sinner.

The emphasis in both stories are about a humility missing by those who boasted about tithes.

Now scripture and history attests that the beginning of the church has with it, it's share of conflicts between Jews and the Gentile conflicts, with many Jews trying to enforce various parts of the Law of Moses unto the converts. The bible explicity mentions thing like types of feasts, holy days, diet and circumcision were not to be used as some kind of measure to judge spirituality or as binding on them. The irony here is that tithing was part of the ordinances or Law of Moses that was nailed to cross, yet many still isolate it tithe as binding or a curse or robbery if in modern parlance it is not returned.

I often have wondered why the Bible was silent on this, but it would seem that the emphasis on giving and sharing was important. Did the apostles pay tithe? I wonder how this would be if they sold all their posessions. (Acts 2:45, Acts 4:32-37) and if the emphasis was all on sharing! To whom was tithe paid? To Paul. I doubt it, because he was of the tribe of Benjamin and not a Levite. Rather churches gave him offerings to promote the gospel and also on top of that he worked for himself, as he didnt want to burden the new churches (1 Thess 2:9) with the need to give. He also showed his gratitued when he received funds from the Phillipians when he went to minister to that same church in Thessalonica (Phil 4:16-18) .To the Church in Corinth and Macedonia Paul commends their generous giving (2 Cor 8) and reminds them it should come from a willing heart (2 Cor 9).

This in no way demeans the conviction by many who wish to return a tithe. The Spirit convicts all as he sees fit, but for those who will use their freewill offerings not just for the promotion of the gospel but to help the poor and needy as so often is recommended as the purpose of giving in the New Testament, this is the biblical basis for my position in contrast to an absence of a biblical basis for tithing in the absence of a Levitial Priesthood.

June 11, 2006

SDA Tithing

Most of us who have throughly studied this know that tithing in church started first from the basis of freewill offerings, or what is known as Systematic Benevolence. This started out as a word of encouragement to support the gospel work by James White in 1859 where he instructed "men aged 18 to 60 to return 5 to 25c, women aged 18 to 60 to return 2 to 10c, and all genders 1 to 5 cents if you owned $100 of property, and exceptions of widows, infirm and aged" paraphrase, RH February 3, 1859, p. 84 this money was used to support visiting preachers.

Readers of the Gospel Order and other church History would see that in conjuntion with James White, D.N.Canright was one of the instigators in implmenting the introduction of tithe using, once again, Mal 3:8-10 as the basis for this, and the church members started storing up tithe on the first sunday of each month. This moved from a freewill offering in 1859 to 1% of property in 1861 to 10% of all income in 1879.

what started out as freewill offerings kept and distributed at local churches to promote the gospel of travelling minsters then in turn became funds that needed to "be placed in the local or General Conference treasuries "to support the proclamation of the third angel's message."" Review Nov 29, 1864.

The authoritative text on the application of tithe through systematic benevelonce was then solidified in Testimonies, vol. 4, pp. 462-476 where EGW stated that "If all, both rich and poor, would bring their tithes into the storehouse, there would be a sufficient supply of means to release the cause from financial embarrassment and to nobly carry forward the missionary work in its various departments."

From my studying of scripture I dont share this. A careful study of this shows that the binding nature of tithe started at Sinai and ended at Calvary, am willin to be shown different.

Does this mean that we can add to scripture where it was nailed to the Cross? No. Does it mean that the tithe is not a good idea? Of course not, as I said for those who use this is a guideline then it is commendable but neither should it be used as some legalistic yardstick to test membership or stewardship.

Once again I have no issue with anyone who does pay tithe and to whoever they pay it, and I would like people to also respect my view for returning freewill offerings.I would love to encourage respectful responses to my biblical as well as church history points on this. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/apple.gif" alt="" />

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

I do not believe that God calls upon me to attempt to impose upon other people my understanding in **those areas**.

>>That is between the individual and God,<<

Have you ever considered, Greg, how many religious wars have been fought, how many millions of lives have been sacrificed (Christian and non-Christian) because of religious zealots who did not adhere to those beliefs? And largely having no reference to tithing, although I'm sure man in general, even those of a religious mindset, considered how they might be enriched if they could only control the blessings in material wealth God lavished upon His loyal followers.

Until I can see the principal outlined in Scripture that God demands allegiance to Himself in any area, I see only man's petty behavior as the motivating factor behind the control of others morality. If all private professed Christians were to allow all other private individuals to decide for themselves how they were to behave, the battle and conflict between Christ and satan would have been settled long ago. Only man's willingness to adopt satan's methods of combat has prolonged the warfare.

[:"red"] "Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you." [/] 2 Chronicles 20:17 KJV

[:"red"] "Put on God's whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil. " [/] Ephesians 6:11 AMP

[:"red"] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [/] John 8:32 KJV

[:"red"] " Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." [/] Romans 14:5 KJV

Of course I'm speaking of an idealized world, possible only under God's rule of love, something that only is practiced when it suits each individual's wants to the disregard of others. But then this is <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/129933-offtopic2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" />

OTOH I do believe your insight matches the general trend of thought in Christian circles, as I perceive most of the body of Christ has given up on making a heaven here on earth as an impossiblity.

Isn't it good that we can look for a Leader who can bring to pass more than we can possibly imagine? Even down to giving an honest tithe.

[:"red"] "Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us..." [/] Eph 3:20 NASB

Blessings!!

June 11, 2006

David & All of You:

One of the issues that individuals Christians, and the corporate chruch faces is that of attempting to apply the principles that we find in a First Cent. book (the Bible) in a 21st cent. context. It is not always easy to do. The applications that we come up with are subject to challenge.

Now, moving on to tithe:

There are aspects of the SDA position on tithing, the application of what we beleive to be a basic principle, that have gone beyond what the Bible clearly states. As such, those aspects are subject to challenge.

The reality is that more and more of our denominational leaders acknowledge this. Yesterday I ate lunch with a current Conference Treasurer. [NOTE: He is not a Treasurer in the Conference where I live.] I mentioned to him the current discussion here in CA on this question. His first response was clearly state one of the fundamental concepts of the SDA position as not being clearly stated in the Bible.

I am aware of a Conference President who when faced with public questions on this issue begins by acknowledging the same point.

Let me take a personal position on the issue of tithe paying:

1) I believe that the Bible teaches that Christians should worship corporately and that they should in that organized worship cooperte together to do the work that God has given the corporate body to do in this time.

2) I believe that such requires financial support of that corporate body.

3) The question now comes to me as to how should I organize my life to provide financial support to the corporate church?

4) My response is that the tithe system, is the best system given us in the Bible.

5) That still leaves me a lot of room as to how I apply it in my life. I determine what my increase is. I determine where it goes. I determine the purpose for which it goes. I am not saying that there is no Biblical guidance on these aspects. I am simply stating that it is up to me to seek to understand that guidance, and then to apply it to my life. That is between God and I.

6) When I work with other people I want to help them to develop a regular system of corp;orate support. I want to bring the tithe system to their attention. But, I do leave details to their determination.

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "Are you saying paying/returning tithe is an option?"

To serve God or not to serve God is always an option. The difference is the returns we might expect to get. To have it any other way would be forced servitude. Definitely not in God's plan of salvation.

[:"red"] "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." [/]2 Corinthians 9:7

KJV

[NOTE: In the quotation above, the question was that of another person. It was not a question that I asked--GM.]

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

There are aspects of the SDA position on tithing, the application of what we beleive to be a basic principle, that have gone beyond what the Bible clearly states.

Years ago, I had to carefully study this question in order to respond to issues raised by church members who had been supporting dissident groups. I started at the beginning of the Bible and went on through. I found an important key to be the modern-day levitical succession. Afterwards, I shared these people what I had discovered. It was, and is, pretty solid. The Biblical teaching about tithing is very clear. The SDA belief that I am familiar with, consists of that Biblical teaching, and follows that teaching, as far as I am aware.

June 11, 2006

Do you mind sharing it here?

Sign In

Why do you pay tithe?

Recommended Posts

Gerr

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Norman Byers, N.D.

Stan

Stan

Stan

Stan

cricket

Gregory Matthews

Gerr

Gerr

rudywoofs (Pam)

Robert

Gerr

Gerr

Robert

Robert

Clio

David_McQueen

David_McQueen

David_McQueen

LifeHiscost

Gregory Matthews

LifeHiscost

David Koot

David_McQueen

Join the conversation

Browse

Activity