Why do you pay tithe?

June 11, 2006

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David Koot said: Years ago, I had to carefully study this question....I started at the beginning of the Bible....I found an important key to be the modern-day levitical succession. Afterwards, I shared these people what I had discovered. It was, and is, pretty solid.

If that's your conclusion then you should follow your convictions, however I have not reached your conclusion. In the NT I find tithing an obscure teaching at best.

Rob

June 11, 2006

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David_McQueen said:

Do you mind sharing it here?

My pleasure. Only, I am just starting my day. sunday is a busy day because people are home from work. I will try to start on this later this evening.

Regards, Dave

June 11, 2006

Hi David,

The beaty about the words of Jesus is His simplicity in getting the truth home to our hearts, if we will here them.

I am reminded of the time when some came to Jesus to try and trap Him in His words.

Luk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?

Luk 20:23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?

Luk 20:24 Show me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.

Luk 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's and unto God the things which be God's.

What are we to render unto God which belongs to Him? In this context it is speaking of money.

Also you said <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Over to the new testament, the only real comments on tithing are

1) When Christ rebukes the Pharisees with their pompous giving of mint and cumin

If you read what Jesus said then you get a better picture than the one you painted.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus is clearly stating that they aught to have paid tithes. Tithes was not nailed to the cross. Only those things which were against us were nailed to the cross. How can tithes be against us when it guards against selfishness and reveals one's faith?

You also said that Abraham paid 10% of plunder. That plunder was the retriving of that which was stolen.

Gen 14:9 With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.

Gen 14:10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slime pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.

Gen 14:11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.

Gen 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed......

Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

Here we have the truth. Not only did Abram retrieve all the stolen goods but he paid tithe. To say that all that was plunder is not right. Abram even refused to take any reward from the kind of Sodom so I'm not sure if Abram got anything out of this.

You are painting distorted pictures here David. Please, when you use an example from the Bible, for the sake of those who don't know these things, be thorough, lest after you see the truth you have led some astray and have to bear that responsiblity. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I have done that myself in the past.

Norman

June 11, 2006

Norman, look at what I said

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The concept of paying a tenth of a possession whether as a one off to a king (Abraham: Gen 14) or as the writer of Heb 7 says, "a tenth of the plunder!" or as a condition for safety (Jacob: Gen 28:20-22)

There was an or, with the reference to Hebrews 7. This made it comparative not absolute. Shall I quote Heb 7:1-4 (NIV)?

[:"brown"] 1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

4Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder![/]

Maybe you need to be thorough as well my friend and read the whole statement yourself rather than just selecting a portion! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

June 11, 2006

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Norman said: Luke 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's and unto God the things which be God's.

Maybe, Norm, maybe?

My problem is this: Why pay tithes to any organization that presents and teaches a perverted gospel? I know the Jews did it prior to the establishment of the Christian church.

I cannot see giving 10% to a church whom teaches a perverted gospel. That's the bottom line.

Anyway, tithe must always be from "a cheerful giver" - not under compulsion or as a means of salvation. For if it is the latter that's nothing more than paying money to get into heaven. I have to follow my conscience on this one, understand?

Rob

June 11, 2006

Fair Point about me not expanding on the whole statement in Matt 23:23. I maintain my comment about pomposity, and in hindsight I should have qualified it as they would have still been observing the Law of Moses in Christ's lifetime.

Reflecting your following question, I will ask is that if tithing was not nailed to the cross then why do we not keep it in its entirety as contained in the Law of Moses?

June 11, 2006

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David_McQueen said:...if tithing was not nailed to the cross then why do we not keep it in its entirety as contained in the Law of Moses?

Ben makes the mistake of assuming that the law of Moses (which included the 10CC) were nailed to the cross. This teaching perverts the gospel because in order to redeem you and I from "under the law" (obey and live, disobey and die) Christ had to fulfill all the terms of the law. He couldn't do that if He abolished the law!

You see if Christ did away with the law by nailing it to the cross then why do the unbelievers have to die the 2nd death or the curse of the law?

No, believers are not "under the law" because of their relationship to Jesus Christ by faith. "In Him" the law sees our humanity as dead because "in Christ" its justice has been legally answered. "In Him" the law sees us positively righteous because He obeyed it perfectly 2000 years ago.

But to the self-righteous (those who reject their need of Christ) the law sees a bunch of sinners who must die.

That's why Matthew says, “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."

Since you are no longer "under law" you must let your conscience be the guide. Anyone who comes to you and says, "David, you must tithe or no heaven for you" is being your conscience and a legalists because you can always answer back by saying, Then you are under "obligation to keep the whole Law"! [see Gal 5:3]

June 11, 2006

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There was an or, with the reference to Hebrews 7. This made it comparative not absolute. Shall I quote Heb 7:1-4 (NIV)?

No use the KJV, NIV is not a good translation <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

David I said that it was not "only" plunder and gave the full story. It makes a difference whether or not you state the whole story. Why? Because it makes it look like what you're saying is that Abram's tithes paying was irrelavant in the context of what we are talking about. You may not see that but I certainly did.

When you look at the whole story you begin to see that Abram did a much more noble thing than it appears. When you combine what you said about Abram with Jacob paying for protection there's a subtil message that maybe Abraham was doing this too since he paid it to the man of God. It makes tithes paying look like it was not something that was of God but rather for alterior motives.

Just be more thorough to avoid confusion and I will be as well.

Norman

June 11, 2006

Rob said

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Since you are no longer "under law" you must let your conscience be the guide. Anyone who comes to you and says, "David, you must tithe or no heaven for you" is being your conscience and a legalists because you can always answer back by saying, Then you are under "obligation to keep the whole Law"! [see Gal 5:3]

This is partly right, Rob. There's no law keeping that will save us. But our salvation produces obedience to the law by the Holy Spirit. (What we know of the law, we will live in it, for to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not it is sin) This is also the Gospel. If you refuse to keep the law, you are refusing the Spirit of God and no person refusing the life giving, good works producing, character changing power of the Holy Spirit will inherit the kingdom of God.

At that point a person like that will have fallen from grace because they have not accept the power that can cause them to live the life they are called and thereby they leave themselves in their own strength to attemp to live a life of good works that they were created in Christ Jesus to live.

We no longer live by the letter of the law, meaning we don't look at the writings and say, Hmmm I have to do this and such. Rather the law is written in our hearts and as a result of the LOVE for God in our hearts we do those things which are written in the law.

This is not referring to those ordinances which were against us, which are nailed to His cross.

Norman

June 11, 2006

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Norman said:Rob said:<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Since you are no longer "under law" you must let your conscience be the guide. Anyone who comes to you and says, "David, you must tithe or no heaven for you" is being your conscience and a legalists because you can always answer back by saying, Then you are under "obligation to keep the whole Law"! [see Gal 5:3]

This is partly right, Rob. There's no law keeping that will save us. But our salvation produces obedience to the law by the Holy Spirit.

That's perverting the gospel, Norman! This is the problem with Adventism. It's a clever, subtle teaching of legalism. In other words, "No, you are not saved by keeping the law, it's the Spirit in you keeping the law." But it still comes down to slavation by faith & works instead of a faith that is born of love. This type of love knows no fear or hope of a reward.

The problem with this is you are setting God's Spirit at odds with what Jesus did 2000 year ago in our humanity. This proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that the SDA church is not now the remnant church. It is Laodicea!

What we "experience" is due to our knowledge and relationship with Christ. It's private...it's confidential. We all have different backgrounds...different life experiences. We can't demand a certain level of performance based on law of others. That's places us as being someone's pope.

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If you refuse to keep the law, you are refusing the Spirit of God....At that point a person like that will have fallen from grace

Paul doesn't teach this, Norm. Here's how Paul states it:

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; [:"red"]you have fallen away from grace.[/] 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness [the coming of Christ]. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

One falls from grace by adding works...even partially to the salvation equation.

The Spirit can only work through us as we stand on the solid rock of Christ our righteousness. He will not work in us if we reject this truth.

Understanding God's love (as seen in Christ's life) is the only thing that will cause a change. Nothing we can do (or the Spirit) can add to that perfect redemption. That's the only reason the 144,000 (God's remnant) will be reflecting His self-emptying love.

So if you say to me, "Robert, you must tithe" then you are being my pope...you would be on Satan's ground (like the Pharisee of old). I am not saying you are doing this, just making a point. We must let God guide because He knows a person’s background. Anything we experience must be based on love, not fear or hope of reward. Let me quote Ellen:

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Hope of reward [i.e., salvation by works] or fear of punishment [God's going to get me] would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship.

Our motives must be right or everything else is corrupt!

That's what she means by "character".

June 12, 2006

*Tacking on

Works are not going to save me.

Tithing is not going to save me.

Attending church is not going to save me.

The bible is not going to save me.

Laws are not going to save me.

Only Jesus can save me.

June 12, 2006

June 12, 2006

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Robert said:

In the NT I find tithing an obscure teaching at best.

Rob

Tithe has never been a requirement, that I'm aware of, in order to be a member in good standing in the Adventist church. There are no requirements or requests of God we don't have the freedom to yield. When we choose to ignore the best counsel God has to give, for those who are capable of fulfilling the request, we need to recognize the promises that go with the request are also forfeited.

For those who have been blest as a direct result of giving tithe, the consequences are anything but obscure.

[:"red"] "But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." [/] 2 Corinthians 9:6 KJV

June 12, 2006

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Robert said:

the SDA church is.... Laodicea!

[:"red"] "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.....

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. " [/] Rev 3:14,18-21 KJV

June 12, 2006

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Amelia said:

Only Jesus can save me.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/amen2.gif" alt="" /> In the meantime, with God's grace I'm going to continue working, and tithing, and attending church, and reading the Holy Bible, and observing the laws.

[:"red"] "And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come." [/]Luke 19:13 KJV

[:"red"] "Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to God. " [/]

Romans 15:17 NASB

Blessings!!

June 12, 2006

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David I said that it was not "only" plunder and gave the full story. It makes a difference whether or not you state the whole story. Why? Because it makes it look like what you're saying is that Abram's tithes paying was irrelavant in the context of what we are talking about. You may not see that but I certainly did

Two simple points here. I placed the reference to the story in parantheses. On such a forum and on the basis of past discussions isn't it safe to assume that we are familiar with the story of Abrhama nad Melchizedek and if not then surely the references point to a refreshing of the memory.

Perception is everything, but on such a forum it cannot be controlled or directed by the writer if the reader already has a coloured view or opinion.

June 12, 2006

I am interested to learn from others, two things.

If the ministry was supported just by offerings isn't it just as sustainable?

In a modern context do people really think you rob God if one returns a freewill offering instead of a tithe? And do you think the curse applies?

June 12, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: [:"red"] "But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." [/] 2 Corinthians 9:6 KJV

Giving to get, is it really giving? God looks at our motive. To me many people pay tithe for self-centered reasons.

My thoughts,

Rob

June 12, 2006

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Tithe has never been a requirement, that I'm aware of, in order to be a member in good standing in the Adventist church

Every year, at Nominating Committee time, as church treasurer I was required to supply the pastor with a list of members who were not tithing.

Those members were then not allowed to be hold church office.

Furthermore the baptismal vow talks about supporting the church with tithes and offerings.

Sure sounds like a requirement to me.

/Bevin

June 12, 2006

There is a sense in which both of your are correct in what you say about tithing being a requirement.

The Baptisimal Vows, which are considered to be a requirement for membership, do have a provision for chruch support by payment of tithe and offerings. So, those who say it is a requiremnt are correct in that sense.

However, the actual payment of tithe has never been a requiremet. If local congregations have made it such, they have been wrong. The SDA Chruch is not like another large denomination that expects to check the tax record each year to see if the individual member has paid a fair tithe.

People have been rightly retained as members who have stopped paying tithe. Such is not an approved reason for disfellowshiping them.

Yes, for many years the payment of tithe has been a requirement by local congregations to hold an elected office. However, even then no attempt was made to determine if the tithe was an actual 10 per-cent. However, in the present time, I strongly suspect that many congregations no longer consider whther not someone is paying tithe when they decide on who the elected officers should be.

There is one last point: Denominational employees have been, and still are, required to pay tithe in the manner that the church recommends, in order to reatin their positions. In this regard, SDA ministers payment of tithe is generally looked at on a regular basis.

June 12, 2006

It depends on how liberal the offering is. If one considers that he/she needs something more than the work, then whoever is dependent on only the offerings will be in dire straits. When the T & O were not given faithfully in the OT, the Levitical system suffered and the people's relationship with God deteriorated/suffered. Tithe, because it is a fixed percentage, is therefore more dependable. Not so the free-will offerings.

BTW, if you are willing to give an offering, what is it about the tithe that is onerous to you?

Gerry

June 12, 2006

I don't understand why we disfellowship people for commiting adultery and other sins, but not robbery.

Gerry

June 12, 2006

As a denomination we have decided that God leaves it up to the individual to determine how to figure the tithe, and where it give it. We have decided that we do not want to inspect tax records and other such so that we can determine whether or not the person is fairly paying tithe.

I agree with that position.

Then there is the human factor the the likelyhood that people wil go wrong.

I am reminded of the SDA minister some years ago. The Conference Treasurer was visiting in his district and going over the books of the churches that the man served. All of a suddent the Treasurer exclaimed; Why, you are paying an honest tithe! The minister asked what he meant and would told that the books showed the he was paying twice the tithe that the Conference thought he was paying. You see the minister knew that people talked. So he split his tithe between two churches that he served. The Conference had only checked the records of one chruch.

As I have stated, SDA Clergy are expected to pay tithe, in order to keep their jobs.

June 12, 2006

As to figuring out what or how much the tithe is, I whole-heartedly agree, i.e. that it's up to the individual. I'm talking about the payment/non-payment of tithe per se.

Gerry

June 12, 2006

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what is it about the tithe that is onerous to you?

1 - The SDA denomination does not provide its more naive members with guidance on how much to pay. I am reminded of one such individual who recieved a largish insurance payment to compensate for a genuine loss, who felt that they had to pay tithe on the $$$ - despite the fact it was not enough to cover the loss!

2 - The SDA denomination does not allow you control over where/how the tithe is spent. Offerings you can tag as going to specific worthwhile causes.

/Bevin

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