Why do you pay tithe?

June 14, 2006

Of whom does the law have authority over, the one who obeys it? Or the one who breaks it?

Gerry

June 14, 2006

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Again, nothing is said in the law about tithing. You're reaching....

Rob

[:"blue"]The 10c law says nothing about uncleanness, lewdness, sorcery, contentions, outbursts of wrath, ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, drunkenness & revelries, yet Paul says that those "who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:20,21.

Isn't it interesting, Robert, that when you apply the law to others you talk about the spirit of the law to condemn them, but when the law is applied to you, you only talk about the letter to evade the application? [/]

Gerry

June 14, 2006

They also took something they were told that it wasn't their's to take. What do you call that?

Gerry

June 14, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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So yes "outward" known, practiced sins shouldn't be tolerated in God's house for Christians claiming Christ. Who says that? Paul (see 1 Corinthians 5:1-13)

[:"blue"]Hmmmmmmmm. By "practiced sins shouldn't be tolerated in God's house for Christians claiming Christ," you mean we should keep the commandment not to dishonor our parents? Not murder? Not fornicate? Not steal? Not bear false witness or covet? [/]

Sooooooooo, what did you mean by the above quote, Robert?

Gerry

June 15, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:By "practiced sins shouldn't be tolerated in God's house for Christians claiming Christ," you mean we should keep the commandment not to dishonor our parents? Not murder? Not fornicate? Not steal? Not bear false witness or covet? Gerry

Here's the context:

It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

This man did more than just mess up (sin), he was "living" with his father's wife - i.e., and they were probably having sex regularly. The congregation was proud...as in "You go man." It was a known sin to the whole church...it was a public sin. Beyond that it would be speculation, hence we must guard from going to extremes. Case in point:

Matt 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ”‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 ”‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.

The fact is, Gerry, even the wheat sins. The difference is their attitude towards sin. They don't deny it. Instead they acknowledge known sin. Perhaps the tares are indifferent or perhaps they are immature. The point is you can't always tell outwardly whose whom!

You see God looks at the heart - the motive. You can do the wrong thing, but for the right reason. Take Sunday-keeping. Many believers who attend church on Sunday are resting fully in Christ. They are resting on the wrong day, but their motive is correct. Likewise many Adventists are keeping the right day, yet their motive is based on fear or hope of a reward (merit). The latter will be condemned in the judgment.

June 15, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Of whom does the law have authority over, the one who obeys it? Or the one who breaks it?

Gerry

Gerry growth is maturing, yet all along the way you are never fully measuring up [see Romans 3:23]. Since the law is not in the business of forgiving your "missing the mark", you stand condemned. Do you still desire to be under its authority?

Rob

June 15, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:The 10c law says nothing about uncleanness, lewdness, sorcery, contentions, outbursts of wrath, ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, drunkenness & revelries, yet Paul says that those "who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:20,21.

Some of those are covered in the law of Ten CC, some are outside it in the book of the law.

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Isn't it interesting, Robert, that when you apply the law to others you talk about the spirit of the law to condemn them,

I use the Spirit of the law to show that we are still sinners and hence in need Christ's justification of us by faith. Legalists oppose this....

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but when the law is applied to you, you only talk about the letter to evade the application?

I am not under obligation to the law for I am not under it. My conscience is clear for I do not see paying tithe to enter heaven. That is abomination to me....It's sick!

If you insist that I give 10% then I insist you give 100% [see Lk 12:33, Matt 19:21, etc]. Don't go there....

Robert

June 15, 2006

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Robert said: I am not under obligation to the law for I am not under it. My conscience is clear for I do not see paying tithe to enter heaven. That is abomination to me....It's sick!

Since you're not under the law, you're above the law? I don't think so Robert. Don't be fooled! Who said anything about paying tithe to enter heaven?

The forgiven sinner living under grace is still under obligation to keep the law. A person saying he is living under grace yet refuses to keep God's law is living under disgrace.

June 15, 2006

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David_McQueen said:

Do you mind sharing it here?

Now, Monsieur McQueen, I should like to start on the study which I did years ago, in regard to tithing. Will no doubt have to do it in chunks. Looking at your posts, I see that you already have cited many of the Bible references.

First, I looked at Gen. 2, and saw a principle of God reserving a portion of material things (Tree of Knowledge) for Himself, as a reminder that He is the source of our blessings. I also saw that God reserved a portion of time (the seventh day) for Himself. That continued down through the centuries. Logically, it seemed that if there was the one, then there would be the other, as well--God's portion of time and material things. I found evidence of that in the stories of Abraham and Jacob.

In regard to God's instruction to Israel regarding tithe, I did not see that as ORIGINATING the concept, for the reasons stated above. I should like to stop here for tonight, as it is late, and would be interested in your comments.

Dave

June 15, 2006

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Robert said:

their motive is based on fear or hope of a reward (merit). **The latter will be condemned in the judgment**.

Re: ** Give some Scripture to this comment, would you, Robert? Please don't use the Spirit of Prophecy, as final decisions for a point of eternal salvation come clear only with light from the Word as conviction of the Holy Spirit guides.

Thank you for your effort. LHC

June 15, 2006

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Sid said:

A person saying he is living under grace yet refuses to keep God's law is living under disgrace.

Never heard it put that way before, Sid. When each of the Ten Commandments is put side by side with the exact opposite of the counsel in the particular commandment, it makes it very clear the word disgrace is very appropriate.

LHC

June 15, 2006

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Sid said: A person saying he is living under grace yet refuses to keep God's law is living under disgrace.

Legalism!

June 15, 2006

Rev 3:14-22

June 15, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Of whom does the law have authority over, the one who obeys it? Or the one who breaks it?

Gerry

Gerry growth is maturing, yet all along the way you are never fully measuring up [see Romans 3:23]. Since the law is not in the business of forgiving your "missing the mark", you stand condemned. Do you still desire to be under its authority?

Rob

[:"blue"] Let me ask you again as I have asked you before and refused to answer, does a growing/maturing Christian continue to fornicate, steal, murder, bow to idols, etc. etc.? [/]

Gerry

June 15, 2006

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Robert said:

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Sid said: A person saying he is living under grace yet refuses to keep God's law is living under disgrace.

Legalism!

[:"blue"] Yep, you want to be declared righteous while continueing to do the same old things!!! Thus making God a liar!!! [/]

Gerry

June 15, 2006

Robert, the fact is, all those sins enumerated by Paul, and even sins he failed to mention are ALL covered in the spirit of the 2c & the 10c.

Gerry

June 15, 2006

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I am not under obligation to the law for I am not under it.

[:"blue"]So then, are you free to have idols, take God's name in vain, disregard the Sabbath, dishonor your parents, murder, steal, covet, and fornicate? [/]

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My conscience is clear for I do not see paying tithe to enter heaven. That is abomination to me....It's sick!

[:"blue"]Has it ever occured to you that you have been evading God's requirements for so long that now it fits the "seared" conscience that the Bible speaks of? [/]

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If you insist that I give 10% then I insist you give 100% [see Lk 12:33, Matt 19:21, etc]. Don't go there....

Robert

[:"blue"]Well, here comes to gospel of destitution again, folks.

God claims 10%. If you are not willing to give the 10%, how are you going to give 100%? You are making God worse than the communists by claiming God wants 100%. Even the communists allowed the serfs small plots of land where they could raise what they could claim as their own. God claims only 10% as acknowledgment that ALL comes from Him.

BTW, you might want to respond to Pam's thread about "Sole Support", or was it Sole... something. [/]

Gerry

June 15, 2006

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Robert said: Legalism!

I think you've got it mixed up that just because something is mandatory, that it's automatically wrong. The Psalmist says "I run in the path of your commands, for you have set my heart free" (Psalm 119:32) and "Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long" (Psalm 119:97). What do you think he meant by that? Why abhor the law so much when it's for our benefit? Obedience to the law is manifest out of our love and faith in Him. That's the only way. I agree with you that we're not trying to keep the law to be saved, but rather we keep the law because we are saved. It's still required though, and the requirement is fulfilled out of love, because we want to keep the law. That's what is so radical about Jesus's way! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31.

June 15, 2006

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LifeHiscost said:

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Robert said: their motive is based on fear or hope of a reward (merit). **The latter will be condemned in the judgment**.

Re: Give some Scripture to this comment...

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [Notice that their motive is they want some type of remward or credit] 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The fruit of legalism is a "bent towards self". The works are tainted with self.... That's what the word "iniquity" means. This group is desiring a reward because they are depending on their good works to get them into heaven.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock [Christ's righteousness]: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand [his works of the law]: 27 “And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and it fell, and great was its fall.”

June 15, 2006

T.O.

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Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

December 17, 1889, paragraph 3

Article Title: The Duty of Paying Tithes and Offerings

Upon what ground may we claim the full and rich promises of God? We can claim them only when we have fulfilled the conditions prescribed in his word. The Lord is constantly giving. He pours down the rain and the sunshine. He promises to give to his people the privilege of eating of the tree of life, and the hidden manna. He holds forth the crown of life, the white stone with the new name written therein. He says, "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." God makes man his agent. He places bounties in his hands, not to do with as it suits his natural inclinations, but as shall best serve the cause of God and forward the truth in the earth. If man had co-operated with God as he directed, every part of the work of God would have moved on in perfect order; there would be no empty treasury. God has given to man the use of nine-tenths of his income, but one-tenth, with the addition of gifts and offerings, the Lord has reserved for himself. Have you robbed God in tithes and offerings? What treasure have you been laying up in heaven by giving to the Lord his own? Your hands may be loosening their hold on the things of this world, and while life is still granted you, why not take up your neglected duties, and as God's faithful stewards, bestow your means where it will work for the salvation of souls and the glory of your Redeemer?

A close, selfish spirit seems to prevent men from giving to God his own. The Lord made a special covenant with men, that if they would regularly set apart the portion designated for the advancement of Christ's kingdom, the Lord would bless them abundantly, so that there would not be room to receive his gifts. But if men withhold that which belongs to God, the Lord plainly declares, "Ye are cursed with a curse."

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Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

December 17, 1889, paragraph 9

Article Title: The Duty of Paying Tithes and Offerings

Brethren and sisters, if the Lord has blessed you with means, do not look upon it as your own. Regard it as yours in the trust for God, and be true and honest in paying tithes and offerings. When a pledge is made by you, be sure that God expects you to pay as promptly as possible. Do not promise a portion to the Lord, and then appropriate it to your own use, lest your prayers become an abomination unto him. It is the neglect of these plainly revealed duties that brings darkness upon the church. Let the elders and officers of the church follow the direction of the sacred word, and urge upon their members the necessity of faithfulness in the payment of pledges, tithes, and offerings.

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Christian Leadership

page 71, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: Finances

Faithful in Paying Tithes --"This is not a request of man; it is one of God's ordinances, whereby His work may be sustained and carried on in the world. God help us to repent. 'Return unto Me,' He says, 'and I will return unto you.' Men who have a desire to do their duty, have it laid down in clear lines in this chapter. No one can excuse himself from paying his tithes and offerings to the Lord."-- Testimonies to Ministers , p. 307.

June 16, 2006

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Sid said:

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Robert said: Legalism!

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31.

Now I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

1. It does not agree with the context.

2. It does not agree historically.

3. It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually. Paul is not dealing in this passage which we have covered with the doctrine of Sanctification. He is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically. What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

1. The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.

2. Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:

And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:

The soul who sins is the one who will die.

And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

So there are two requirements that the law demands from each one of us. If you fail to fulfil those two requirements, you cannot establish the law, the law will condemn you, you’re still under the curse. But in Christ the law has been established. Christ met on behalf of all people the two demands. By His perfect life, He has met the positive demand of the law, which the Bible calls the righteousness of the law. And, by His death, He has met the justice of the law, so that, in the doing and the dying of Christ, the law has been established. That is what Paul is saying in verse 31. I’ll come back to it.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, let’s go to Romans 3. How then does Paul use the word “faith” in verse 31 of chapter 3? Well, the context tells us here that he is discussing the doctrine of Justification by Faith. He has told us in verse 28 that the righteousness of God which justifies us by faith is apart from the law. That means our keeping of the law does not contribute towards the righteousness which justifies us. But the question in verse 31 is, “What about God’s righteousness? Does God’s righteousness satisfy the law?” In other words, is God righteous when He justifies us sinners? Can His righteousness stand up with the law in the judgment? The answer is yes.

In other words, what Paul is defending here is, once again, the legal framework of the atonement. That’s why, if we destroy the legal framework of the atonement, which some of our theologians are trying to do, we have destroyed one of the key passages, one of the key teachings of the New Testament.

[:"Red"]Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?

“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”

And God will say, “Who told you that?”

“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”

And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”[/]

The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me,[:"Red"] “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”

The law says, “I did not ask that question.”

“Well, I kept most of the law.”

The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”

“Well, I goofed up a few times.”

And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”

But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”

The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”

“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”

But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”

And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”

The law will say, “When did you die?”

And I'll say, "I died in Christ."

And the law will say, "Welcome...come on in!"

June 16, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

<hr /></blockquote>So then, are you free to have idols, take God's name in vain, disregard the Sabbath, dishonor your parents, murder, steal, covet, and fornicate?

I am free from under law, period. If you make any one of the above a conditon of salvation you must make all the law a condition upon entering heaven. Who said that? Paul!

Anything that I experience in the realm of Christian living will be between me and My redeemer. He is my pope....Hence, Gerry, you can't be my conscience...you can't be the Holy Spirit and you can't be a fruit inspector because you can't read the heart.

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Has it ever occured to you that you have been evading God's requirements for so long that now it fits the "seared" conscience that the Bible speaks of?

Thank you for that judgmental statement.

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God claims 10%. If you are not willing to give the 10%, how are you going to give 100%?

Are you giving 100%? No! Your 10% won't save....

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You are making God worse than the communists by claiming God wants 100%.

For Himself..Does it say that? No!

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor."

Obey Gerry, obey....Two can play your game....

Rob

June 16, 2006

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LifeHiscost said:

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Robert said: their motive is based on fear or hope of a reward (merit). **The latter will be condemned in the judgment**.

Re: Give some Scripture to this comment...

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [Notice that their motive is they want some type of remward or credit] 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The fruit of legalism is a "bent towards self". The works are tainted with self.... That's what the word "iniquity" means. This group is desiring a reward because they are depending on their good works to get them into heaven.

I appreciate your conclusion. However it appears to me the results (their being denied entrance to the kingdom) in the case as described by Jesus, did not deny entrance as a result of what your conclusions were, but referred instead to their lack of knowing the King. In fact no mention was made in reference to motive, only to their relationship to the Savior.

While I agree, the appeal for entrance by the workers was made with the reason of the works performed, typical of a legalist who believes salvation is a reward of personal works done, the reason for dismissal of the request was not based on works done or not done, but rather a lack of personal knowledge of Jesus, which would clearly be evident in the life of a person trying to work his/her way to heaven, but showing no love or compassion toward those for whom the work was done. [:"red"] "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." [/]

As the Word specifies___ [:"red"] "But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.... " [/] Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

OTOH___

[:"red"] "I know that His commandment is eternal life; ." [/] John 12:50 NASB

[:"red"] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [/] John 17:3 KJV

[:"red"] "If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." [/] 1 John 4:20 NASB

June 16, 2006

Truth mixed with error is a deadly cocktail. The problem is that if someone were to actually believe your statments, then they would be tempted to say "well I'm not under the law, I'm above the law" as an excuse for their sin, rather than have repentance for the sin. This is presumption. Jesus did not die so that you could be above the law. Don't misrepresent Jesus's death.

June 16, 2006

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Robert said: Anything that I experience in the realm of Christian living will be between me and My redeemer. He is my pope....Hence, Gerry, you can't be my conscience...you can't be the Holy Spirit and you can't be a fruit inspector because you can't read the heart.

When Gerry asked whether you are free to break the law, this is your answer? "None of your business, it's between me and God?" <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'll pray for you.

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