Was Jesus selfish?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Was Jesus just like any other infant?

If He cried when he was wet/hungry/cold, did that make him *selfish*???

I'm totally confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> If Jesus didn't behave as a human infant - then how was He ALL human? If He didn't cry when he had needs, then what did He do when he *did* have needs? I find it ludicrous to think He opened his mouth at birth and said, "Pardon me, but if it would not be too much trouble, could you please feed me/change me/hold me? But if you're busy at the moment, I'll just be quiet and wait patiently and spend my time praying about it."

[Robert]

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rudywoofs said:Was Jesus just like any other infant?

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Jesus is God, but He came to live in our humanity. That humanity came from Mary's womb. It was identical to ours in every respect.

That being said Jesus, as man, never gave into its selfish desires!

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If He cried when he was wet/hungry/cold, did that make him *selfish*???

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See John 11:35 -- Jesus wept

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If Jesus didn't behave as a human infant - then how was He ALL human?

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Jesus is God...he is not human! He is righteous...He is immortal. Yet He condescended to take upon His sinless nature our fallen humanity indwelt with sin.

In that humanity, as an infant, Jesus never sinned. He was born spiritually alive with the Holy Spirit fully controlling His mind. We are born spiritually dead with our nature controlling our thoughts.

[Robert]

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rudywoofs said: If He didn't cry when he had needs, then what did He do when he *did* have needs?

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The Bible doesn't say, but it does say that He was and is without sin. He never did anything selfish.

If I hurt and it brings tears to my eyes that's pain....It's not being selfish. But if I hurt and demand your sympathy or attention, then I am being self-centered. Jesus never demanded anything....He didn't even take up for Himself when He was being persecuted.

[Robert]

• Is 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, [how?] Each of us has turned to [:"red"]his own way [/];But the Lord has caused the iniquity [selish love] of us all to fall on Him.

  7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

  8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living, For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?

  9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence,Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

[Robert]

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rudywoofs said: I'm totally confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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Maybe you need to understand what constitutes sin?

The sin problem...read this!

[aldona]

I have a real problem with a religion that attaches the label "sin" to a helpless baby crying out because he/she is wet or hungry.... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

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Was Jesus selfish?

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Nope

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb. 4:15

[Aliensanctuary]

I suspect Jesus' mother was very attentive to his needs, but we can't rule out him crying to bring attention to his unmet needs, if any. Maybe he just whimpered once or twice to communicate his discomfort.

Although, I suppose it's not impossible for a baby to not cry. It’s probably not important, anyway, one way or the other. His mother was carefully picked, most probably for the tender care and training she could provide while his character was forming.

[olger]

Nope. He made the crucifixion decision way back in Psalm 40. The question would be better not asked.

gcw

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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olger said:

The question would be better not asked.

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And why is that? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I was not asking the question in relation to Jesus as an adult. I asked the question regarding Jesus AS AN INFANT.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "I have a real problem with a religion that attaches the label "sin" to a helpless baby crying out because he/she is wet or hungry...."

Aldona, so do I.

Keep in mind, you-all, that Robert is presenting his view, which in some respects if represented in Adventism by others. But, there are other views in Adventism.

A foundational aspect of the question being presented here is the issue: What is the nature of Christ? This has been a major question for the entire time we have existed as a denomination. Each side of this controversy claims that their position is supported by the Bible, and by Ellen G. White. In my thinking, the best that can be said for that is that the opposing positions demonstrate that EGW is not clear (definitive) on this subject.

It also might be said that the Bible does not clearly define the nature of Christ. All it does, is to tell us in simple terms that Christ did all that was necessary to accomplish our salvation, and that in his human life, he conquered sin, and lived our life. Folks, that is a simple truth that is of major importance to our salvation. But, it is a simple truth that leaves some aspects undefined. In my thinking, if I can accept it in its simplicity I am not required to understand all of its aspects in order to be saved.

I will go on beyond this to what I think is an important issue. As is stated in the Reference to JS, that Robert made, sin in the Bible has several meanings. [Now I am speaking.] One cannot really understand sin until one has a grasp of those multiple meanings. Yet, it can be hard to put them all into one statement about sin.

I personally feel that it is important to realize that the Bible teaches that God does not charge one with sin when one has not been convicted on that sin by the Holy Spirit. Sin is so comprehensive that I am likely committing sin now. But, if the HS has not convicted me on that point, God is not charging me with that sin.

In the process of time, the HS, as my spiritual guide, will likely convict me of sin on that point. At that time, if I commit that sin, I will be charged with that sin by God. But, that is what salvation is all about. God has a plan for dealing with chargeable sin in my life. Salvation is still open to me, under God's plan. [NOTE: Please do not anyone say that I am teaching that one can freely, openly, willingly, continue in sin. That is a very dangerous position that I am not teaching.}

O. K. From the perspective that I have stated, is the crying baby sinning. That child, in my thinking, is not being charged with sin. I would personally take the position that the baby did not have the mental development to be selfish at that stage in the child's life. To be called selfish, in my thinking requires more development of the brain, and mind than the baby has. Robert might disagree with me on that point. For those who do so, I simply say, God is not charging that child with sin.

[Robert]

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aldona said:

I have a real problem with a religion that attaches the label "sin" to a helpless baby crying out because he/she is wet or hungry.... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

aldona

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I didn't say it was sinful because of crying....Re-read what I have already stated.

Thanks,

Rob

[Robert]

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Gregory Matthews said:O. K. From the perspective that I have stated, is the crying baby sinning.

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I had a kidney stone when I was about 39. It brought tears to my eyes....I was groaning with pain. Was I sinning? No. My wife tried to help, but because of my pain I snapped at her rudely. That was sin!

What if I had needed to go to the hospital and she refused (out of meanness)? How would I have responded? I bet the flesh would have got the better of me.

A baby cries because it is uncomfortable. Is that necessarily sin? No, but when it pitches that fit because you didn't immediately jump to its needs that is sin.

However, looking at the big picture we are sinners by nature. We are born spiritually bankrupt without the HS dwelling in us. We serve the flesh from birth because we come from a lost race "in Adam".

Ah, but there's good news! It's called the gospel, "in Christ". And Greg, Ellen White is clear on this subject. Jones and Waggoner were also clear....Jack Sequeira, Robert Wieland and many others are clear on this subject (especially Paul). It is the gospel the SDA church is to take to the world. But this is a bit off the subject....

Rob

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "No, but when it pitches that fit because you didn't immediately jump to its needs that is sin."

You appear to attribute more mental development to that baby than I am able to attrilbute.

[Robert]

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Gregory Matthews said: But, if the HS has not convicted me on that point, God is not charging me with that sin.

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Technically speaking sin is sin. It doesn't matter if you are a Gentile without the law, or a Jew who knows the law, the only way to eternal life is by keeping the law. See below:

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [why?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

But, in the gopsel, Christ has legally answered all its demands. That's why Paul states that you lived, died and were resurrected "in Christ".

No one will be lost because of his/her sins for we continually fall short of the glory of God. We will be lost because of persistent unbelief.

Now if you sin and the Holy Spirit convicts you of this sin you have two choices:

1] Acknowledge the sin, or

2] Justify your actions.

That latter choice infers one is not a sinner. Holy Joes don't need Christ. They will become lost because of unbelief and it is unbelief to think that all of us are not sinners or that we reach a place where we are not sinning (babies included).

The problem is that babies can't acknowledge sin, but that doesn't mean that they are not sinners. I believe God doesn't charge anyone with sin apart from willful, persistent unbelief on the part of the person. At the point that person fully hardens his/her heart, that person comes "under law" and under law there's a long list of sins.

So, as I have stated elsewhere, God never consigns anyone to eternal death (the curse of the law) on the basis of that person's sin "in Adam". Why? The truth as it is "in Christ"! See below:

First "in Adam":

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world [the human race], and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned [i.e., "in Adam"]— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses...

Okay, there's our situation "in Adam" (babies included).

Verse 18 As through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

"In Christ" all mankind have been justified unto eternal life. Our situation "in Adam" has been legally reversed in the holy history of Christ. Hence, my belief is we are born saved, but somewhere we make the decision to either accept the gospel or reject it.

If, however, we train our children to believe they are good little boys and girls we are setting their feet in the path of unbelief. So when the Holy Spirit comes and reveals their need of Christ they will probably reject Him.

Rob

[Robert]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "No, but when it pitches that fit because you didn't immediately jump to its needs that is sin."

You appear to attribute more mental development to that baby than I am able to attrilbute.

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His/her nature is controlling him/her! It’s automatic....

We need to face this fact that all of us (babies too) are sinners in need of Christ's righteousness.

Rob

[Robert]

You guys/gals ponder this statement:

-BC- Mar

-TI- Maranatha

-CN- 83

-CT- Proof Against Every Temptation

-PR- 02

-PG- 91

The infinite value of the sacrifice required for our redemption reveals the fact that sin is a tremendous evil. Through sin [the core being selfishness] the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. [:"red"]Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [/]

I don't tune pianos....So I didn't know what "an answering chord" meant. Well, it means that if you perfectly tune two pianos and press any key, the other piano will respond automatically. It resonates at the same frequency. This, says EGW, is how powerful sin is....It is imperceptible...we naturally go that way, unless we have the Spirit dwelling in us.

Babies are born spiritually dead....That doesn't mean they are lost, they just don't have God's Spirit in them. Neither do a lot of grown ups because they have persistently rejected God's grace.

I don't understand why this is so hard to accept, unless no one likes to think of their little ones as sinners. If so you will probably raise your kids to be independent of God. As Jesus said, “I didn’t come to save the righteous, but sinners.”

I don't have "the book" on how to communicate this to kids as they grow. If I had to do it over I think I would, in a gentle way, illustrate by my actions and theirs, that we have a problem and its called selfishness. I wouldn't condemn them, but rather tell them of how much God loves sinners. I would give them the good news of the gospel.

Having said that, we need not be deceived into our goodness....Yes grow, but we will always need Christ's righteousness.

Rob

[Robert]

The below was taken from another section, but it fits nicely here:

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olger said: If we have to be born again before we can even see the kingdom of heaven, then there was something wrong with our first birth.

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We have a problem, Huston! I understand, but how does your gospel understand the below?

-PC- YI

-PT- The Youth's Instructor

-DT- 04-01-58

-AT- Bereavement

-PR- 03

As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels [shake their heads and think, "If only they had been 'born again'"]. No?

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The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life.

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Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads."

How can Jesus legally allow infants into heaven seeing that they have not been born again?

Rob

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "I believe God doesn't charge anyone with sin apart from willful, persistent unbelief on the part of the person."

Robert, in the above, you and I strongly agree.

[Robert]

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/luxhello.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/Group.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thankyousign.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dancingman2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" />

[Kountzer]

You constantly ask goofy questions.

[Morning Glory]

D. Bishop,

This is a person who is honestly trying to understand. It would behoove all of us to not criticize her for doing so, but instead gently guide her understanding.

This is a question that I have had, also, but have not dared to actually voice.......because of all the the above posts. It is difficult to think of my Lord and Saviour as a BABY, crying, nursing, having diaper blow-outs, getting into things that he shouldn't because he is exploring His world, getting diaper rash, perhaps colic. And, on and on. Witnessing my 2 granddaughters going thru those stages of life and making comparisons to when Jesus was an infant and small child, well, it can be mind blowing.

Please don't castigate Pam for asking questions. She is a "baby christian" and needs our loving support, not our criticism.

Thank you for your consideration.

MG

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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D_Bishop said:

You constantly ask goofy questions.

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I could say a lot of things in reply to that.

But for now, my only response is this: []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/avatar3_5.gif[/]

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, I responded to the statement that Pam asks goofy questions. But, my response went into cyber space.

Pam asks honest questions. If Darryl has not asked such questions in his spiritual journey, that is where he is at. But, Pam is on her own spiritual journey, and is asking valid questions that others have asked.

Christ has something powerful to say about those who discourage children in the faith from asking questions. It would behoove us to treat Pam's questions respectfully.

[there buster]

D. Bishop.

Perhaps you are confused. This is a religious-oriented forum. For "Goofy" questions, you should consult with a Disney-oriented forum. Same for "Mickey Mouse" questions. For "Daffy" questions, consult Warner Brothers.

Pam's question was a Jesus question, therefore appropriate here.

Pam. An often overlooked verse makes it clear that Jesus grew and developed like any normal child.

Luke 2:52 [:"red"]And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. [/]

Lots of people know the verse but tend to miss the point. Luke was a doctor, a physician. He was the only one to tell us anything about the pregnancies of Mary and Elizabeth-- Matthew skips from the annunciation to the birh--because physicians were and are concerned with such things.

Luke, as a doctor also concerned with child development, tells us that Jesus developed normally: he grew mentally (wisdom) and physically (stature) and socially (in favor with God and man).

There may be more to the verse, but there's not less.

As far as Jesus being selfish, it depends upon what you mean by selfishness. Did he have needs that he attended to and/or asked for help with? Yes. Did he place his needs before God's will? No.

Did he cry as a baby? I don't know, but I'd guess yes. Babies, as Luke would remind us, have very limited ways of communicating with us. We adults are not always as observant of a baby's needs as we should be. That's why my guess would be yes. But no one knows.

I personally would neither speculate nor make rash statements concerning his diapers.