Was Jesus selfish?

July 29, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said: On this planet one has to fend for his/her own food & clothing...

The Bible says that if you have food and clothing with this be content! Would you be content, Gerry?

Nooooooooooo wayyyyyyyyy!!! Because God promised so much more than just food or clothing!!!

Really? Isn't ironic that Doctor Cabalo has very nice things, but many Christians do not? Funny, I didn't think that God was partial! Oh, I get it...you have nice things because of your law performance. Silly me, forgot all about that.

You know...you really shouldn't be an Adventist. Instead you should follow one of those prosperity preachers around. You two would do well together.

Rob

July 29, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

Gerry,

Please explain Luke 22:27

"For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves!"

Blah, blah, blah....

Gerry

Try again!

July 29, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said: "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfol now in this time - HOUSES and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions - and in the age to come, eternal life." Mk 10:29,30 NKJ.

Okay...good try. I'll use Luke 18:28 - 30

“Behold, we [disciples] have left our own homes, and followed You.” 29 And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

"[Jesus] had no silver or gold or houses to leave His disciples. He was a poor man, as far as earthly possessions were concerned. Few in Jerusalem were so poor as He." [HP 249]

So how did He give the disciples what He didn't have Himself?

Furthermore, let's go to Hebrews chapter 11:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.....

Now pay attention:

13 These all died in faith,not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.

Hey...let's get this straight...nothing is wrong with living in a home. We will live in homes in heaven. What's wrong is the self-seeking we go through to get our homes. That's why Christ had nothing to do with this world system because it is based on iniquity!

Rob

July 29, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said: Robert, you apparently feel greater than the Master...

To be greater than Christ I would have to be a greater servant than He was and is....I have made no such claim!

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because at every opportunity you want to tell us that it is selfish to have cars, houses, and lands, but yet you keep hanging on to your possessions!

The means that you obtained them was most likely selfish....Be gald that you are not under law!

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A servant, who is educationless, homeless, carless, & whatever less he is less of, is practically useless in this day and age.

Useless? I guess you wold have called Christ useless in His day!

Nothing is wrong with education....What's wrong is the motive to get educated. Apparently part of your motivation was to have nice things, huh? Why didn't you, as your Master would have done, place your time and money into helping the poor by cutting way back on all the goodies you have? Why didn't you purchase a used single wide to live in. Why didn't you buy a good, but used inexpensive car? And on and on and on....

As Christians we all do things that are unselfish through Christ's strength, yet at the same time we are not completely live without selfishness. Christians are just less selfish. Maybe that's why EGW said,

"There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance." [5T 479]

July 29, 2006

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Robert said: Nothing is wrong with education....What's wrong is the motive to get educated.

"To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking. Much of the education given is a perversion of the name." [ED 225]

James 4:2 You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

"In the Sermon on the Mount He [Jesus] showed how its requirements [the law's requirements] extend beyond the outward acts [:"red"]and take cognizance of the thoughts and intents of the heart[/]." [AA 505]

July 29, 2006

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Robert said: "In the Sermon on the Mount He [Jesus] showed how its requirements [the law's requirements] extend beyond the outward acts [:"red"]and take cognizance of the thoughts and intents of the heart[/]." [AA 505]

Oh yeah, this is funny. I remember when I was coming up as an SDA kid....I remember this rich guy (or the bank was rich) who had a real nice home with a swimming pool. Well I over heard a discussion going on. The man said He bought it so the kids could come over and swim. Isn't that nice! I guess he didn't spend any time enjoying it for himself?

My point? The flesh comes up will all sorts of reasons and justifications to get what it desires. I gave up on justifying the selfish things I do....The thing here is we do like to enjoy things that are mainly for us. Is that sin? Yes, technically....Does that mean I am going to buy nothing in the future for my enjoyment? Probably not! Does this mean I am lost? No! Why not?

I am not under law!

Does that mean I should indulge the flesh concerning this selfishness? Should I just go take a woman and have my way with her? No. Should I just go and take my neighbor's money? No....So hopefully we grow, but perfect? Man when you realize how short we fall from Christ's selfless life, well, you just take one day at time and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Right now I am not hearing from the Spirit to sell my home or my cars. But there might come a day when I have to choose between these things and Christ. Then I had better be willing to say goodbye to my toys....Agree?

The point here is not to sell all your goodies. Under law yes, you better or no heaven for you. But under grace it's a bit different.

Because of Christ's earthly life in our flesh, I stand complete in Him even though I am still selfish.

Again, if Christ was selfish (even as an infant) we have no hope!

Rob

July 29, 2006

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Robert said: Because of Christ's earthly life in our flesh, I stand complete in Him even though I am still selfish.

Is this true?

Again, let me give you EGW:

Satan asks: "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been [:"red"]lovers of self [/] more than lovers of God? [:"blue"]Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness[/], their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies [i.e., they haven’t given themselves totally over to the flesh, to live according to it]. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, [:"red"]and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf[/]."

PS: I use EGW because as a legalist I was given daily doses of her. Now I use those other statements!

July 29, 2006

Is it selfish to aspire to eternal life in paradise? If selfishness is marked by the purposeful attainment of one's own inner wishes and/or survival needs, then I would think *that* would be close to the ultimate in selfish desire. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps the selfishness issue boils down to the *will* - human will vs God's will. I do not think it is God's will that people be without food and shelter....nor do I believe that it is God's will that people be without pleasure. However, the *means* of going about attaining that which is sought is important...it should never be at the expense of harming someone - humans OR God.

~ robbing a person to get money is not an acceptable way of earning a living

~ cheating on an exam is not an acceptable way of getting good grades

~ stealing a horse is not an acceptable way of providing oneself with transportation

~ eating 5 pounds of chocolate may be VERY pleasurable, but it is harmful to oneself

~ and to get very personal, worshipping other gods can be very gratifying, but it is a slap in the Face of God. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

July 29, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said: no one is going to give me a horse/car....

Right! However, if you had been a member of the early Christian church you would have not been without. See Acts 4:34

"There were no needy persons among them."

Why?

"Not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them." Acts 4:32

Now granted, this unity didn't last very long! Why? Because Ananias and Sapphira introduced "self" back into God's selfless system of love being demonstrated through the early Christian believers.

[:"blue"]A & S fault? Remember they got zapped soon after their lie. That should have scared everybody to tow the line. Fact is, how long can a group continue to exist that sells their houses & lands & gives all their paychecks to others? That's why that practice died out, not just because of human selfishness. [/]

Gerry

July 29, 2006

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Robert said:

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Robert said: Because of Christ's earthly life in our flesh, I stand complete in Him even though I am still selfish.

Is this true?

Again, let me give you EGW:

Satan asks: "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been [:"red"]lovers of self [/] more than lovers of God? [:"blue"]Have they not placed their own interests above His service?

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[:"blue"]Did you catch that, Robert? There is nothing wrong with loving self. The passage condemns those who love self more than love for God. It is not paying attention to one's interests that is wrong, it is placing one's own interests above His service that is condemned. Read it for yourself. [/]

Gerry

July 29, 2006

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My point? The flesh comes up will all sorts of reasons and justifications to get what it desires. I gave up on justifying the selfish things I do....The thing here is we do like to enjoy things that are mainly for us. Is that sin? Yes, technically....Does that mean I am going to buy nothing in the future for my enjoyment?

[:"blue"]"Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink, and enjoy oneself in all one's labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him, for this is his reward. Furthermore, as for everyone to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God." Ecc 5:18,19 NASB [/]

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Probably not! Does this mean I am lost? No! Why not?

I am not under law!

[:"blue"]So, you are free to keep your goodies, free to take other's goodies? [/] <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Does that mean I should indulge the flesh concerning this selfishness? Should I just go take a woman and have my way with her? No. Should I just go and take my neighbor's money? No....

[:"blue"]You claim you are not under law, but then you go on to explain that you cannot fornicate or steal. What kind of double talk is this? I am not under the law that says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery"; I don't have to obey it, but I cannot commit adultery either. I don't have to bey the law that says, "Thou shalt not steal," but I can't steal.

Babylon!!! [/]

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So hopefully we grow, but perfect?

[:"blue"] And grow by becoming more obedient? Or less obedient? [/]

Gerry

July 29, 2006

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Again, if Christ was selfish (even as an infant) we have no hope!

Rob

[:"blue"]Agreed!!!!!!! But your definition of selfishness makes Christ selfish because He did pay attention to His needs. He slept when He got sleepy, He ate when He got hungry, drank when thirsty, worked as a carpenter so He could clothe Himself & His family and not mooched on others. Had a home before He began His ministry. Might even have owned it. Horrible thought, huh? [/]

Gerry

July 30, 2006

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rudywoofs said: Is it selfish to aspire to eternal life in paradise?

I guess I would ask what's the motive? Most of us come to Christ out of fear or hope of reward. It should be out of love and appreciation only, but....

July 30, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said: A & S fault? Remember they got zapped soon after their lie. That should have scared everybody to tow the line.

It doesn't state that God zapped anyone....

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Fact is, how long can a group continue to exist that sells their houses & lands & gives all their paychecks to others? That's why that practice died out, not just because of human selfishness.

I'm sure people were still working, but instead of working for selfish purposes, they were working for each other.

July 30, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:Did you catch that, Robert? There is nothing wrong with loving self. The passage condemns those who love self more than love for God.

You left out some vital info:

"Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness"

Both the Bible and EGW teach that "the love of self" is sin. In fact it's really called iniquity...this bent towards self. Here's a quote:

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law." [CC 299]

In Matt chapter 19 it concludes the same!

July 30, 2006

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"Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink, and enjoy oneself in all one's labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him, for this is his reward. Furthermore, as for everyone to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God." Ecc 5:18,19 NASB

Ecc 2:24 A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, [why?] 25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment?

Without God you wouldn't have life, right? In fact without God you wouldn't be sinning, right? You are able to sin because God has given you life. You gain wealth because you have life, but it doesn't mean that it's not self-centered.

Rob

July 30, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Again, if Christ was selfish (even as an infant) we have no hope!

Rob

He slept when He got sleepy, He ate when He got hungry, drank when thirsty, worked as a carpenter so He could clothe Himself & His family and not mooched on others. Had a home before He began His ministry. Might even have owned it. Horrible thought, huh?

Sleep is a fact of life in this fallen world. Eating the same. Jesus lived in His parents home....It wasn't His....

July 30, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:Ecc 5:18,19

"Solomon mingled error with truth, and betrayed sacred trusts. The insidious evils of paganism corrupted his religion."

"He tried--but at what cost!--to unite light with darkness, good with evil, purity with impurity, Christ with Belial."

"One of the most powerful influences that led to Solomon's apostasy, was the pride of prosperity."

I think I'll look at Christ's life to understand righteousness, not Solomon's!

July 30, 2006

[:"red"] "But if anyone does not provide for his own, especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever [infidel - KJV]." 1 Tim 5:8 NKJ. [/]

Gerry

July 31, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"red"] "But if anyone does not provide for his own, especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever [infidel - KJV]." 1 Tim 5:8 NKJ.

Provide what?

July 31, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

Was Jesus just like any other infant?

If He cried when he was wet/hungry/cold, did that make him *selfish*???

I'm totally confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> If Jesus didn't behave as a human infant - then how was He ALL human? If He didn't cry when he had needs, then what did He do when he *did* have needs? I find it ludicrous to think He opened his mouth at birth and said, "Pardon me, but if it would not be too much trouble, could you please feed me/change me/hold me? But if you're busy at the moment, I'll just be quiet and wait patiently and spend my time praying about it."

Hey Pam

We are not told anything about His infantcy so anything we think with regards to your topic is speculation. We do know that Jesus wept as an adult, that He was angry in the Temple, that he felt pain and didn't want to suffer as He indicated in Gethsemane. I here great synicism in your voice in the questions above and I am not sure you are asking this because you are synical about Jesus or synical about the way he is represented in the Bible and by the Church. Where is your synicism coming from? I know the feeling well and I know how destructive it can be.

July 31, 2006

::sigh::

My question was not born out of cynicism.

My question was not designed to manipulate anyone.

I have no ulterior motives.

It was A QUESTION. It was a *ponderable.* []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_rolleyes.gif[/]

On the forum and elsewhere it has been stated that humans are selfish from birth. And that selfishness is evil. Jesus was human (and God). He was not evil. That is a conundrum, in my opinion. I thought it worth exploring. I guess I was wrong. So why doesn't everyone just go ahead and bring a stick to the spot, strike a match and burn me at the campfire, why don'tcha?

[]http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/Flame-15-june.gif[/]

July 31, 2006

Thanks for clarifying, Pam, but I don't think you had to. I put you also in the "Creative Thinkers" group <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes there are questions that we don't want to think about because they are too hard and we just don't know

If Jesus cried as a baby because his tummy needed filling or his pants needed changing, I don't view that as a bad type of selfish. That is just how babies communicate their needs

How can we figure out the nature of God, even as He came down and took on humanity? I just don't know, but if we can tell anything about Jesus by the way people flocked about Him as an adult on a mission, I think He may have also had winning ways about Him as a youth. The Bible says that He grew in stature and in favour with God and man

July 31, 2006

Quote rudywoofs:

"On the forum and elsewhere it has been stated that humans are selfish from birth. And that selfishness is evil. Jesus was human (and God). He was not evil. That is a conundrum, in my opinion. I thought it worth exploring. I guess I was wrong. So why doesn't everyone just go ahead and bring a stick to the spot, strike a match and burn me at the campfire, why don'tcha?"

You are not wrong. Like you and I, Jesus had a selfish and sinful human nature. While we were conceived by men's sperms, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost. We were unable to overcome the selfish and sinful human nature. Jesus, under the guardian of the Holy Spirit, was able to overcome the selfish and sinful human nature. Asking for help when in need is not selfish, Jesus asked the Samaritan woman for a drink.

July 31, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"red"] "But if anyone does not provide for his own, especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever [infidel - KJV]." 1 Tim 5:8 NKJ.

Provide what?

[:"blue"]Less home? Less education? Less clothes? Less food? Less transportation? Less money! Is that what we are to provide our families with? [/]

Gerry

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