Was Jesus selfish?

July 31, 2006

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yongttay said:

Quote rudywoofs:

"On the forum and elsewhere it has been stated that humans are selfish from birth. And that selfishness is evil. Jesus was human (and God). He was not evil. That is a conundrum, in my opinion. I thought it worth exploring. I guess I was wrong. So why doesn't everyone just go ahead and bring a stick to the spot, strike a match and burn me at the campfire, why don'tcha?"

You are not wrong. Like you and I, Jesus had a selfish and sinful human nature. While we were conceived by men's sperms, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost. We were unable to overcome the selfish and sinful human nature. Jesus, under the guardian of the Holy Spirit, was able to overcome the selfish and sinful human nature. Asking for help when in need is not selfish, Jesus asked the Samaritan woman for a drink.

[:"blue"]Now, let's think through what you just said. You believe that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit? Yet believe Jesus had a selfish and sinful human nature? Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit, that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit. How then can the Holy Spirit bring forth a selfish, sinful human being? The fact is, He was called "that Holy One even at conception. [/]

Gerry

August 1, 2006

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yongttay said: Like you and I, Jesus had a selfish and sinful human nature.

I understand your meaning, but be very careful that you don't make Jesus a sinner. Jesus is first and foremost, God. Yet He took upon His divine nature our sinful fallen nature. But to say that Christ HAD a fallen nature is not true. It was never His nature...it was our nature in our humanity. If Jesus HAD a sinful nature, He would be a sinner. That's because the Bible teaches that we are sinners by nature and performance.

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While we were conceived by men's sperms, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost.

Please remember that Jesus as man was of the "seed" of David. What made the human Jesus different was because He was indwelt by the Spirit from conception. He never said yes to the nature within His assumed humanity, not even by a thought.

August 1, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said: Less home? Less education? Less clothes? Less food? Less transportation? Less money! Is that what we are to provide our families with?

Gerry

I'm sure your family has it made....You know why? You’re a doctor and doctors make big money. But things are changing....Now one can go to India for 1/10 the price that one pays a doctor here in USA. Do you think the medical lobbyists will sit by while their wages get decreased? Heavens no....They have BMWs to buy; Mansions to keep up and big name colleges to send their kids to. And this doesn't smack of self-importance and self-seeking? I don't think so....

Face it...you got where you are at because you competed against others. That’s the system in our world, but it’s fallen…it’s sinful because instead of living for others and putting others first, it places the emphasis on self and self-preservation. That, according to the law, is iniquity.

August 1, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:How then can the Holy Spirit bring forth a selfish, sinful human being? The fact is, He was called "that Holy One" even at conception.

Holy in performance, but not in nature....

The humanity that Jesus took upon His divine nature was our fallen, sinful life.

Proof?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life [the power of the Spirit] [where?] in Christ Jesus has set me [context: The man of Romans 7] free from the law of sin and death.

How?

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh

Paul is saying that Christ as man defeated "the law of sin" by "the law of the Spirit" and hence He condemned sin in "the flesh"! There's no vicarious victory here, it was real because Christ defeated "the law of sin" in our humanity....

Rob

August 1, 2006

Here's a quote I found while Googling:

"It's a dog-eat-dog world means that you must first watch out for your own interests, because other people will be watching out for theirs."

August 1, 2006

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Robert said: Face it...you got where you are at because you competed against others. That’s the system in our world, but it’s fallen…it’s sinful because instead of living for others and putting others first, it places the emphasis on self and self-preservation. That, according to the law, is iniquity.

Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

August 1, 2006

Let me give you something to ponder:

Matt 19:21 Jesus answered [the rich man], “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven [i.e., your reward will be eternal life]. Then come, follow me.”

What did Jesus mean by "follow me"?

Luke 9:57 As they [the disciples and Jesus] were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

What are you thoughts?

Disclaimer: I am not trying to put you under law for we are under grace.

Rob

August 1, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

Was Jesus just like any other infant?

If He cried when he was wet/hungry/cold, did that make him *selfish*???

I'm totally confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> If Jesus didn't behave as a human infant - then how was He ALL human? If He didn't cry when he had needs, then what did He do when he *did* have needs? I find it ludicrous to think He opened his mouth at birth and said, "Pardon me, but if it would not be too much trouble, could you please feed me/change me/hold me? But if you're busy at the moment, I'll just be quiet and wait patiently and spend my time praying about it."

OK Pam, not out of cynicism (glad you can spell <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). My answer to your question: Was Jesus just like any other infant? No. Father God, mother human.

If He cried when he was wet/hungry/cold, did that make him *selfish*??? No. Just limited with human limitations. Buy the way, there is nothing wrong or selfish about crying, for any of us. No more selfish than laughing. There is room for selfishness in the kingdom of God. God is selfish when He wants to create something like this world to enjoy, and in the selfish act (making man in His image is another example) He makes something good for others at the same time. So self and others is OK. OK to love myself and give myself good things along with others.

Was Jesus selfish when He asked God not to make Him go through the suffering? Yes, at that moment He self indulged in self pitty and wept and feared for Himself. And than He got up and went and suffered for us. Self and others seems to be the balance.

August 1, 2006

Now, let's think through what you just said. You believe that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit? Yet believe Jesus had a selfish and sinful human nature? Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit, that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit. How then can the Holy Spirit bring forth a selfish, sinful human being? The fact is, He was called "that Holy One even at conception.

Gerry

Jesus got the selfish and sinful human nature through His mother Mary. If Jesus did not have the selfish and sinful human nature, He could not possibly be human and cannot represent us and died for us and save us.

August 1, 2006

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yongttay said:

Jesus got the selfish and sinful human nature through His mother Mary. If Jesus did not have the selfish and sinful human nature, He could not possibly be human and cannot represent us and died for us and save us.

While I would not question the integrity of your conclusion, yongttay, the one thing I do not think it reveals is that Jesus Himself admitted of no personal inner flaw that fell short of perfect righteousness, and I am sure you would agree that selfishness and a sinful nature are not a work of perfect righteousness.

[:"red"] "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." [/] John 14:30 KJV

[:"red"] "I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me.." [/] John 14:30 NIV

[:"red"] "I will no more talk much with you, for the ruler of this world doth come, and in me he hath nothing.." [/] John 14:30 YLT

[:"red"] "I don't have much more time to talk to you, because the prince of this world approaches. He has no power over me.." [/] John 14:30 NLT

August 1, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

So why doesn't everyone just go ahead and bring a stick to the spot, strike a match and burn me at the campfire, why don'tcha?

[]http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/Flame-15-june.gif[/]

In my estimation, Pam, you have just experienced one of the differences between Jesus and His disciples. Despite the fact that we wish you could see Jesus through our behavior,

none of us measure up to the Ideal.

Some reject this next Scripture since it is not found written this way in the older translations. However I would like to ask you if you believe if this principle were followed, the same error in judgement about you would have been made?

[:"red"] "...Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]." [/] 1 Cor 13:7 AMP

And there is another truth which is not often believed by those who claim the name of Jesus.

[:"red"] "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" [/] Revelation 3:17 KJV

OTOH, I'm hoping that the way you receive the flaws of other professed believers will be an example to those who are seekers after Truth, for it seems that foregiveness is something needed in all our lives if we are to be a help in advancing the kingdom of God on earth.

[:"red"] "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." [/] Gal 6:1,2

God bless!!

August 1, 2006

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everyday said:God is selfish when He wants to create something like this world to enjoy

This planet was made for the human race. Adam & Eve were given dominion over it.....

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OK to love myself

The Bible doesn't state this....Self-love is our problem. And don't confuse the issue for the opposite of self-love is not self-hate, it's selflessness.

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Was Jesus selfish when He asked God not to make Him go through the suffering?

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. [but then He catches Himself:] Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

As man, Christ's human nature here was opposed to His Father's divine nature, but Christ resisted it and submitted to the Father.

No, Christ wasn't selfish...it was His human nature that tempted Him to love Himself and let the human race go to hell....

August 1, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." [/] John 14:30 KJV

Jesus never sinned....John is referring to Christ's spotless performance while in our sinful humantiy!

Rob

August 1, 2006

Not to anyone in particular, but here's one dictionary's definition of selfishness:

"That supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others."

August 1, 2006

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Robert said: it [self-seeking] places the emphasis on self and self-preservation. That, according to the law, is iniquity.

Now here's the problem: If you live a selfless life (one free from self-seeking) in this world under Satan's principle of "self" you will be without! Christ's life on earth proves this statement.

“The Saviour lived not to please Himself. In His life there was not trace of selfishness...."Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests," He said; "but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head." [EGW]

Guess what, guys? I sure am glad that I am not under law! I am glad that Christ is my righteousness. Why? I am selfish...yes, less selfish, but the law doesn't accept "less selfishness" - it demands perfect unselfish love.

August 1, 2006

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yongttay said:

Now, let's think through what you just said. You believe that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit? Yet believe Jesus had a selfish and sinful human nature? Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit, that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit. How then can the Holy Spirit bring forth a selfish, sinful human being? The fact is, He was called "that Holy One even at conception.

Gerry

Jesus got the selfish and sinful human nature through His mother Mary. If Jesus did not have the selfish and sinful human nature, He could not possibly be human and cannot represent us and died for us and save us.

[:"blue"]Were Adam & Eve human? [/]

Gerry

August 1, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:How then can the Holy Spirit bring forth a selfish, sinful human being? The fact is, He was called "that Holy One" even at conception.

Holy in performance, but not in nature....

The humanity that Jesus took upon His divine nature was our fallen, sinful life.

[:"blue"]If He was born with a nature craving for things that are at war with the Holy Spirit, then you have no excuse whatsoever not to do exactly what He did!!! [/]

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Proof?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life [the power of the Spirit] [where?] in Christ Jesus has set me [context: The man of Romans 7] free from the law of sin and death.

[:"blue"]Non sequitor. [/]

Gerry

August 1, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said: Less home? Less education? Less clothes? Less food? Less transportation? Less money! Is that what we are to provide our families with?

Gerry

I'm sure your family has it made....You know why? You’re a doctor and doctors make big money. But things are changing....Now one can go to India for 1/10 the price that one pays a doctor here in USA. Do you think the medical lobbyists will sit by while their wages get decreased? Heavens no....They have BMWs to buy; Mansions to keep up and big name colleges to send their kids to. And this doesn't smack of self-importance and self-seeking? I don't think so....

Face it...you got where you are at because you competed against others. That’s the system in our world, but it’s fallen…it’s sinful because instead of living for others and putting others first, it places the emphasis on self and self-preservation. That, according to the law, is iniquity.

Good old Adventist "inverse snobbery" shows its true colors again...

We sit in a Sabbath school discussion (in our church a few weeks ago) and a member launches into a five-minute tirade against those "evil" people who have "higher education" and therefore are undermining the church and not to be trusted.

We hear sermons from the pulpit about selfish professional couples who don't have children because all they care about is money (and all while the pastor is looking us in the eye, and knowing my husband and I are the only couple in our church where both partners work full-time and have no children).

We sit through church board meetings and nominating committee meetings where the usual snide remarks are made about doctors/ professional people and how they have so much influence because of their money. (Last nominating committee my husband flatly refused an elder position because he was so passionate about not wanting to be "seen" to have "bought" a position on the church board.)

And yet they are very happy to take our money. Whenever the church needs $500 or $1000 for a new evangelistic program, or someone wants to finance a missionary trip overseas, guess who is always the first to get asked? Yep, you guessed it.

I pull up to a red light in my little Toyota (which I have driven since I was a student, and has been smashed up and repaired about 3 times), and the ADRA collector with the can says, "Well, look who's here! It's the doc! NOW we'll get a $100 note." Well, excuse me, buddy, but I just spent that $100 on a car load of supplies for the refugees, so I'm a bit low on spare change at the moment. And I can tell by that smirk on your face just where you would LOVE that $100 to go - in YOUR pocket. (Without all that hard work, of course.)

Ever since I finished high school and entered university, I have been treated as some kind of second-class spiritual citizen. But only by Adventists. Everybody else seems to have no problems relating to people like us as normal people with normal lives and normal jobs.

If this denomination is so dead set against anybody who has been to university or who works in a white-collar occupation, then maybe I'd better find myself another denomination. It just gets too exhausting going to church week after week and being belittled and made to feel unwelcome in no uncertain terms. And it is really unnecessary to find the same sentiments on the forum. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

(end of rant. off to work)

aldona

August 2, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:How then can the Holy Spirit bring forth a selfish, sinful human being? The fact is, He was called "that Holy One" even at conception.

Holy in performance, but not in nature....

The humanity that Jesus took upon His divine nature was our fallen, sinful life.

If He was born with a nature craving for things that are at war with the Holy Spirit, then you have no excuse whatsoever not to do exactly what He did!!!

You first....STOP BEING SELFISH NOW!

August 2, 2006

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aldona said: it is really unnecessary to find the same sentiments on the forum. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

(end of rant. off to work)

aldona

I think if you read ALL my posts that I am also calling myself selfish.

The reason why I stress this issue of iniquity isn't to knock doctors...it's to knock legalists! Gerry just happens to be a doctor who's a legalist. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

August 2, 2006

As an outside observation, I find it fascinating that the SDA Church always comes back to this issue, the "Nature of Christ". What is that about? I really don't know what brings this organisation back to this discussion. I dont know if other denominations have this same discussion. I am not saying it is wrong to discuss it but I find it fascinating that it always comes up. What is it that makes this topic so important and yet so seemingly unreachable and devisive (divides churches and even conferences)? I don't get that! Can anyone tell me, what does God say about Jesus nature? What does the Holy Spirit say? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" />

August 2, 2006

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everyday said: Can anyone tell me, what does God say about Jesus' nature?

First of all it wasn't Jesus' nature, it was our nature!

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood*, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

* 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption....53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

August 2, 2006

Thanks Aldona. My sentiments exactly, although I have not experienced reverse snobbery to the extent that you seem to have had.

My grandparents were illiterate. My father finished 5th grade. I don't know how far my mother went, but I doubt she finished grade school. My father worked in the sugar cane plantation in Hawaii, & my mother was a seamstress. My brother, my sister, & myself are the first high school & college graduates in our family. I suppose this snobbing clown wants us to rise no higher than our ancestors.

Gerry

August 2, 2006

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Can anyone tell me, what does God say about Jesus nature? What does the Holy Spirit say? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"]The "Anointed One", "conceive of the Holy Spirit", "sinless", second "Adam", "born of a woman", "seed of David", "Son of God", "God", "Son of Man", "Lord", "Great Shepherd", "Living Bread", "Light of the world", "the Way, the Truth, and the Life", "I AM", "Elder Brother", "King of Kings & Lord of Lords", "Kinsman", "High Priest". [/]

Gerry

August 2, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said: I suppose this snobbing clown wants us to rise no higher than our ancestors.

“Sin originated [how?] in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven.” [i.e., he wanted to be # 1] [FLB 68]

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