Was Jesus selfish?

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

That's nice, but what's one of the motives? $$$$

Again,

"To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking." [EGW]

"...When the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [EGW]

I guess when one is obsessed with the motives, education,possible wealth, the first thing that is thought of is the amount of dollars the party that is the object of such jealousy might gain.

I do expect Dr's to be paid. The enormous cost of their education alone is mind boggling. That pales by comparison to the hours and the awesome responsibility they have in treating some patients. The decisions they must make has to keep many awake at nights. The sad news they many times deliver to a hopeful family has to be heart wrenching.

I sincerely doubt that the Dr that refused to give up to save my son was thinking, "Boy, I am going to make a bundle on this baby" The nurse that held him and prayed over him daily, working many long extra hours on his behalf was not thinking, "Look what I can do with all that overtime"

Yet, they were paid. Unlike you I was happy we were able to do so.

The belief that you seem to be so firmly entrenced in should have a far happier result than it seems to for you. Doesn't the gospel stand for "good news"? I don't think that those that believe in God are expected to be so obsessed with jealousy and what appears to be contempt.

You have stated previously you were very legalistic. You have also blamed others for that condition. Maybe it had more to do with you. You still appear very legalistic, just in the reverse.

Maybe someday the "good news" will be just that for you.

I don't believe God is against education,wealth,taking care of your family. Nor do I believe he put you in charge of determining the motives behind receiving an education, how much you can be paid before it is a sin(greed) or how best to care for your family.

One of my husband's DR's goes to S.America every year for 6-8 weeks. Providing much of his own medicine, equipment, and a nurse or two. All medical care is provided free of charge.

Yes, I am sure you will see selfish motives behind that or it isn;t enough. And that may be true, but.......

Making allowances for the difference in ability, the education you despise, what have you done that is comparable, before you condemn others? He lives the "good news". He doesn't condemn with it.

It seems odd that one that in good consceince can live without regard to his actions,is under absolutely no constraints, can throw out the ten commandments, make any amount of money, drive a fancy car if I remember,seems to have all the comforts he would like to deny others, sounds still like a very jealous, bitter man, while claiming to believe in the "good news".

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

"Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be [future tense] among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children." [EGW]

This, I believe, is speaking of Rev 12:17...those "who keep the commandments of God"....They are NOT mechanically keeping rules. Selfishness is banished...the flesh is held captive by the Spirit of God and Christ's selfless nature is seen through His church at that time.

Rob

Whatever will happen to those that believe there are no commandments to keep, that awful law that some claim not to be under. Selfishness, oops there goes all their possessions. The ones they condemn others for having now as a sign of what their true motive is.

August 5, 2006

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bonnie said: Whatever will happen to those that believe there are no commandments to keep, that awful law that some claim not to be under.

Gal 3:21 For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Good thing too, huh? Seeing that you and I are selfish!

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bonnie said: Whatever will happen to those that believe there are no commandments to keep, that awful law that some claim not to be under.

Gal 3:21 For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Good thing too, huh? Seeing that you and I are selfish!

The difference is how you define believe. There are those that is very easy to see what they believe. Not perfect, not expecting the law to save them. The believe part has made an impact on their lives. That impact is usually seen by others.

The believe part doesn't continually belittle others,and try to verbally beat them into submission to their will. The believe part is not made up of "I will do as I please because I believe".

Hopefully someday you will find that "good news" that imparts happiness.

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Robert,

You do this frequently, is this suppossed to annoy anyone? I just take it as one more sign of spreading the "good news" by a believer

August 5, 2006

You have a good night Robert. I will take my legalistic thoughts and leave you to a night berating the rest of the "legalists" I HAVE to get up for church in the morning

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: Your ability to attack those whom you feel responsible to put in their place, Robert, reveals the master you serve

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Matt 23:27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

[:"red"] "...and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold" [/] Matthew 24:12 YLT

[:"red"] "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day." [/] Psalm 119:97 KJV

[:"red"] "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." [/] Psalm 119:165 KJV

[:"red"] "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [/] 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

[:"red"] "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [/] Matthew 5:19 KJV

Keep the Word!!

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bonnie said: I don't believe God is against education

Only if it is used for the advancement of others. As EGW said, "The Saviour lived not to please Himself. In His life there was not trace of selfishness."

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

wealth

In heaven wealth is the result of others caring for you above themselves.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

taking care of your family.

Yes Paul does say one needs to be responsible for his own. He is not dicussing selflessness in that quote. Hence here's some practical advice Paul gives to Christians:

Phil 2:4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus....

Now we know that Jesus had no self-interests, so Paul is making a comparative, comparison...something to aim for while in this sinful world.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nor do I believe he put you in charge of determining the motives behind receiving an education

You are right! However, the Bible makes it plane:

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity [our bent towards self] of us all.

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said:"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [/] Matthew 5:19 KJV

Don't leave out the rest of the context:

Matt 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Matt 19:24 it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

[:"red"] "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." [/] Matthew 19:26 KJV

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Matt 19:24 it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

[:"red"] "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." [/] Matthew 19:26 KJV

Right...He saves by His righteousness, not ours....

The rich man (in Matt chapter 19) was very self-righteous. His riches, he thought, were the result of his law-performance.

As the young man turned away, Jesus said to His disciples, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter
into the kingdom of God."

These words astonished the disciples. They had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven; worldly power and riches they themselves hoped to receive in the Messiah's kingdom; if the rich were to fail of entering the kingdom, what hope could there be for the rest of men?….

Why the favorites of heaven?

Because to the Jew a rich man was a good man blessed of God for His law performance! This mentality is what Jesus had in mind when He stated, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Rob

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said: 1 Cor 10:24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Those two quotes pretty much sums up what the law of God demands. However, the believer is not "under law" - he is under grace and for a good reason:

The law doesn't give out "E" for "effort". If gives "F" for "failure" to live the life Christ lived in our humanity some 2000 years ago. His life fulfilled the law in every detail.

Does that mean that just because we "fall short" of God's selfless love that we are liberty to live as selfishly as possible? No! Here's some practical Christianity:

"Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." Philippians 2:4 NIV

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Right...He saves by His righteousness, not ours....

Rob

Your conclusions about this deserve a hearty <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/amen2.gif" alt="" />, Robert. It isn't this conclusion that repels me, as even the people who make effort to ignore God's laws and teach others to do likewise are still seen as in heaven, although the least.

However your effort to lay on others the sins you imagine in your own mind, accusations that could discourage the struggling, who have not as yet concluded that their salvation is assured by acceptance of Jesus grace, and has nothing to do with what we ourselves do or don't do.

And then when others claim victories through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, giving all praise to the Savior for being set free, you still surmise through evil imaginations, that our Father is so impotent He does not free His faulty children from their weaknesses, though His promises are given to the weakest of those who submit to Him.

[:"red"] "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" [/] John 8:32 KJV

[:"red"] "Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth" [/] John 14:6 KJV

[:"red"] "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." [/] John 17:3 KJV

[:"red"] "...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." [/] Philippians 2:13 NASB

[:"red"] "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.." [/] 1 Corinthians 1:27 KJV

August 5, 2006

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/amen2.gif" alt="" />The only thing I would add to what you have posted, Bonnie, is that all of those characteristics so admired and desired as a Christian, from others, are all a result of the intervention of God through the power of the Holy Spirit, and have nothing derived from any goodness of our own.

Perhaps Paul said it best when he said,

[:"red"] "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..." [/] Rom 7:18 KJV

However we know that statement did not reflect all of the good works that were a result of his submission to a Higher Power, a power that had nothing to do with any righteousness of Paul's. Nor did it address the very real good works that accrued through submission to the Holy

Spirit.

[:"red"] " Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation..." [/] James 1:17 NASB

[:"red"] "For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." [/] Rom 10:3

KJV

My contention is that often those who say it is only necessary to believe, themselves do not believe that Jesus intervenes in the lives of those willing to invite His Spirit to give discipline to the life of the disciple for the saving of the lives of those who will believe, because of the good works fulfilled through the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.

[:"red"] "Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us..." [/] Eph 3:20 NIV

Blessings!!

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Don't leave out the rest of the context:

Matt 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Even the dimmest of intellects understands this not to be the present state of those who are [:"red"] "poor, wretched, naked and blind" [/] , therefore it is to be just what it says, [:"red"] "you are to be" [/], a goal to be reached for, a promise that will be completed at the coming of Jesus to take His followers home.

[:"red"] "Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you." [/] Phil 3:13-15 NIV

[:"red"] "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" [/] Hebrews 12:2 KJV

[:"red"] "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." [/]

1 Cor 15:51,52 KJV

Believe!!

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." [/] 3 John 1:2 KJV

(And)

Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in health; I know that it is well with your soul [RSV]

(And)

Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well. [NIV]

<hr /></blockquote> parenthesis mine LHC

And all the <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/Group.gif" alt="" />said <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/amen2.gif" alt="" />

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: ....accusations that could discourage the struggling, who have not as yet concluded that their salvation is assured by acceptance of Jesus grace.....

Not accusations...truth...Bible truth!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

And then when others claim victories...you still surmise through evil imaginations, that our Father is so impotent He does not free His faulty children from their weaknesses....

Cut the baloney! If you are so high and mighty just stop sinning right this moment. Never, ever sin again. All sins, that both the letter and the spirit of the law points out, must cease immediately. No more self-serving...no more self-love...no more me, me, me...but them, them, them....Live Christ's life in every detail.

So now...who’s impotent? Not God, but rather your surrender....

"the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak"

Rob

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Don't leave out the rest of the context:

Matt 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

... it is to be just what it says, [:"red"] "you are to be" [/], a goal to be reached for.....

Wow...all that distortion! No, it is clear: You are to be perfect...how perfect? As perfect as your heavenly Father!

Let me help you with the context:

"Whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave...." Matthew 20:26,27

Now let's look at Matthew 5:19 IN ITS CONTEXT!

According to Matt 4:25, "great multitudes followed Him from Galilee and Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. 5:1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying....

Whom is Jesus teaching here? Some say just the disciples, but if you go to where Christ finishes His discourse, you will find it was also the great multitudes. Let's go there:

Matt 7:28 The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching; 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. [Please note the tension between Christ's words and the "teachers of the law."]

The multitudes were typically Jewish and as a Jew in the days of Christ you were taught that only those who obey the law went to heaven.

So the mentality of the "great multitudes" (including the disciples at that time) was that heaven is only attainable by the keeping of the law!

Was Jesus teaching the same as "the teachers of the law"? No and I'll prove it:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matt 5:20]

Did you catch that? Jesus is basically saying, "Remember what the teachers of the law taught you? Well I am telling you that your law keeping must surpass theirs!"

Now Christ begins to compare the letter of the law to what the spirit of the law requires:

Letter: “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ [verse 21]

Spirit: “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court." [verse 22]

Letter: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; [verse 27]

Spirit: but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. [verse 28]

Jesus continues to do this right up to verse 48 where He sums it all up:

[:"red"]“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”[:"black"]

Did you get that – how perfect are you to be? What does the context say? “You are to be perfect”…how perfect? As you heavenly Father is perfect!!!

Why was Jesus teaching practically the same thing as that of the teachers of the law? The Jews were already bogged down under the law….It was a yoke of bondage to them.

Now Jesus comes along and makes matter even worse by adding the spiritual requirements of the law. What is Jesus doing?

Answer: The same thing He did at mount Sinai! The question is why did Christ give the law to a bunch of sinners when He knew that they couldn’t keep it? The problem is they didn’t know they couldn’t keep it!

If you come to Jesus and ask Him what good thing must you do to gain heaven, He will tell you to keep the commandments! Why? To break you of your pride – your ego….He does it to humble you so that you will concluded (as did Paul), [:"red"]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."[:"black"] [Romans 3:28]

For further proof of my conclusions study the following:

Matthew 19:16-26

Luke 10:25-29

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: Now tell us HOW we can gain wealth without improving one's self, which you twist & call selfish & therefore sinful.

Any education gained must be for the benefit of others, not self. For this to happen, "There [must] be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own, [:"red"] but another's wealth[/].” [DA 439]

This will then bring unity! All revalry, competition and all attention getting antics will be shunned.

Compare: "All the believers were one in heart and mind [i.e., there was unity!]

The fruits of this union?

1] "No one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common."

2] "There were [:"Red"]no needy persons[/] [no poverty] among them"

Now read EGW's quote again:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [own way] but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Gerry?

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bonnie said: I don't believe God is against education

Only if it is used for the advancement of others. As EGW said, "The Saviour lived not to please Himself. In His life there was not trace of selfishness."

[:"blue"]"The development of all our powers is the first duty we owe to God and our fellow men. No one who is not growing daily in capability and usefulness is fulfilling the purpose of life. In making a profession of faith in Christ we pledge ourselves to become all that it is possible for us to be as workers for the Master, and we should cultivate every faculty to the highest degree of perfection, that we may do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable." COL 330-331 [/]

EGW

August 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:....we should cultivate every faculty to the highest degree of perfection, that [we may can aquire much wealth? NO! So that] we may do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable." COL 330-331 [/]

EGW

-BC- Ed

-TI- Education

-CN- 25

-CT- Education and Character

-PR- 04

-PG- 225

To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking. Much of the education given is a perversion of the name. In true education the selfish ambition, the greed for power, the disregard for the rights and needs of humanity, that are the curse of our world, find a counterinfluence....

thank you....

August 5, 2006

Your formula for ridding the world of poverty?

Is to: 1) Rise no higher than your ancestors because to do so would be selfish, 2) be selfless & to divest everything that promotes self, i.e. be homeless, carless, payless, educationless, in short - witless.

Gerry

August 5, 2006

Does your quote say, "ALL?"

And who are you to attribute everything that a person does to nothing but the promotion of self? Who appointed you judge? Can you read hearts? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, there are people who better themselves so that perhaps by so doing they will leave this world a bit better than if they had not done so and just been satisfied with mediocrity?

Gerry

Sign In

Was Jesus selfish?

Recommended Posts

bonnie

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

bonnie

Robert

Robert

bonnie

bonnie

bonnie

LifeHiscost

Robert

Robert

LifeHiscost

Robert

Robert

LifeHiscost

LifeHiscost

LifeHiscost

LifeHiscost

LifeHiscost

Robert

Robert

Robert

Gerr

Robert

Gerr

Gerr

Browse

Activity