We are onced-saved, always saved!!!

[Taylor]

Yes they are to glorify Christ but they are also of great benefit to us, to our families, to the people around us. No one has said that our works are to gain merit. But it is also true that is God isn't Lord of our life, then we will have no heart to do what he asks us to do, and will say that the Law is way too hard to keep. No with God's grace we can keep it. We have already sinned, and we don't have all knowledge so we can sin by accident. We can also sin willfully and we must ask God to fortive us for those things. But the saved Christian has, in the center of his heart, a desire to be like Jesus, which will transfer into him making changes in his life to live according to God's word, but only through the power of the holy spirit, and only to glorify God and to better his relationships and happiness here on this earth becuase he truely loves people. It will not save him but if his heart isn't sold out to Jesus so that he actively wants to change and does his best to follow God, even if he does fail and has to repent, he can not be saved because God isn't his number one priority, it is simply an add on to his life.

Ok now I think I have talked circles around this topic...so I should quitt and let you all get back to your discussion.

[Woody]

Amen ... Very well said.

But I do fear that this statement below will put you at odds with some here ...

Quote:

We can also sin willfully and we must ask God to fortive us for those things.

A few have be harping over and over about how terrible this statement is.

Wait till they read this.

[Taylor]

We can and do sin willfully simply becuase we are sinners and most of our sinning is frankly willful. BUT the closer we come to Jesus the less of that will be happening because we have given more and more of our life over to Him. Some "willful sin" may also be "out of ignorance" ...it is willfully done but not completely understood.

The distinction is in sin that is in absolute rebellion that says "I don't care what you say..I want what I want and I want it my way and I don't want to do it your way." That type of sin...practiced continually will eventually drown out the HS voice, not because he quitts calling but because we have walked to far away we no longer hear. That is the sin of a hear that is not sold out to Jesus, but rather is in rebellion to him. In that case, that person would never be happy in heaven becuase their heart belongs to them, not to Jesus.

BUT regardless of how good we are, we are saved by grace. "Good Works"(like being kind to the neighbor, helping the unfortunate etc) or "obedience" regardless of how "flawed" they may be simply show that we trust God and really truely want to do his will. They are a necessary part of the Christian's life simply because they

1. Benefit the person...(a life devoid, lets say of alcoholism is truely more pleasant for the person and their family as there will be less violence and car wrecks and missed days of work etc..)

2. They benefit those around them by that person being a greater blessing to his neighbor as he is more loving like Jesus would be.

They are the fruit of a life surrendered to Jesus. That is why our "obedience and works" are judged...not becuase they save us but becuase it shows whether Jesus is Lord of our life or not.

[LifeHiscost]

The answer is that, just as the Scriptures say, those who are "of the devil" and are not "born of God" will not understand what the Scriptures are saying because people need the Holy Spirit to understand what the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets and apostles to write. 1 Cor. 2: 13, 14. "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Scripture plain and simple. Soon that will be considered hate communication and will be outlawed from the new world order, as it already is in various parts of the world.

"O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD."Isaiah 2:5 KJV

"So Jesus said to them, " For a little while longer the Light is among you Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes."John 12:35 NASB

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 1:7 KJV

Seems like walking in the light precedes cleansing unless we prefer the alternative.

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."Isaiah 59:2 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: delta

but I don't believe that the same Jesus has the power to give His people victory over sins.

Hi Delta,

I'm very surprize at you using this phase, what do you mean?

I believe she is using language of sarcasm in hopes it might be seen as foolish as it really is.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No' date=' I NEVER said once saved always saved. I said once saved always saved as long as you keep your faith in Christ's righteousness. The only reason men are lost is due to pride and self-righteousness. The Jews were first class law keepers. They would make SDA look like school kids.

Why were they lost? They rejected their need of Christ's righteousness and instead were quit proud of their own righteousness. So...the only reason one will be lost is because of the sin of unbelief, which is the sin of legalism.... [/quote']

Exactly ...

Good Job Rob.

So I'm assuming if we re doing anything legally according to the Word we are defined legalists and a work of the devil, according to some. IOW this inspired counsel below automatically, if followed, makes us legalists.

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

Titus 2:11-13 KJV

"Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation." 1 Peter 2:12 NASB

"If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." 1 John 2:29 NASB

Brings to mind another principle.

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."Matthew 5:11,12 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Now if either side says that

1. We can't obtain victory nor should we try and we can just keep on sinning because we like it...that isn't biblical. We must have a heart so sold out to Jesus that we will want to and actively seek his power to overcome in our lives, NOT as a means of salvation BUT because we love Jesus more than anything else and we want to become more like him every day.

2. We must keep striving for perfection becuase that is what saves us, that is also not biblical, we are saved by grace alone.

Just my 2 cents.

Now I'd of said that, if I had the patience. However I would like to suggest the word "alone" in the Holy Bible is never used with the word "grace", at least not that I'm aware.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

Ephesians 2:8 KJV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Just my 2 cents.

With inflation, your 2 cents must worth at least $1 by now!!! :smile:

[Gerr]

Amen ... Very well said.

But I do fear that this statement below will put you at odds with some here ...

Quote:

We can also sin willfully and we must ask God to fortive us for those things.

A few have be harping over and over about how terrible this statement is.

Wait till they read this.

Of course, we CAN sin willfully till the day we die. I have no problem with that, since we are ALWAYS free to choose what we do! But did you not say in the past that believers sin and sin WILLFULLY (not CAN but sin willfully] until they die?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The answer is that, just as the Scriptures say, those who are "of the devil" and are not "born of God" will not understand what the Scriptures are saying because people need the Holy Spirit to understand what the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets and apostles to write. 1 Cor. 2: 13, 14. "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Scripture plain and simple. Soon that will be considered hate communication and will be outlawed from the new world order, as it already is in various parts of the world.

Sad but true.

[Taylor]

Quote:

Just my 2 cents.

With inflation, your 2 cents must worth at least $1 by now!!! :smile:

hahaha so true...and with the recession and AIG scandals etc...it is probably a negative dollar amount!. :)

[Gerr]

We can and do sin willfully simply becuase we are sinners and most of our sinning is frankly willful. BUT the closer we come to Jesus the less of that will be happening because we have given more and more of our life over to Him. Some "willful sin" may also be "out of ignorance" ...it is willfully done but not completely understood.

Here is how MW defines "willful", so you may want to reasses your view about willful sin.

will•ful or wil•ful \ˈwil-fəl\ adj

13c

1 : obstinately and often perversely self-willed 〈a stubborn and willful child〉

2 : done deliberately : intentional 〈willful disobedience〉 syn see unruly — will•ful•ly \-fə-lē\ adv — will•ful•ness

And here is what the Apostle John says in 1 Jn 3:6,9: "No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]......No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God."

And here is how MW defines "practice": 1prac•tice also prac•tise \ˈprak-təs\ vb

prac•ticed also prac•tised; prac•tic•ing also prac•tis•ing [ME practisen, fr. MF practiser, fr. ML practizare, alter. of practicare, fr. practica practice, n., fr. LL practice, fr. Gk praktikē, fr. fem. of praktikos] vt 14c

1 a : carry out, apply 〈practice what you preach〉

b : to do or perform often, customarily, or habitually 〈practice politeness〉

c : to be professionally engaged in 〈practice medicine〉

2 a : to perform or work at repeatedly so as to become proficient 〈practice the act〉 b : to train by repeated exercises 〈practice pupils in penmanship〉

3 obs : plot vi

1 : to do repeated exercises for proficiency 2 : to pursue a profession actively

3 archaic : intrigue

4 : to do something customarily

5 : to take advantage of someone 〈he practised on their credulity with huge success —Times Lit. Supp.〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

This is the kind of sinning that I have been maintaining as possible and MUST be the experience of a believer who wants to see Jesus face to face without fear. This has been interpreted by some as legalism. That somehow I am teaching absolute, sinless perfection! That I am trying to earn merit by my obedience even though I have repeatedly declared over and over again that we are saved solely by the merit of Christ's righteousness!

Quote:

The distinction is in sin that is in absolute rebellion that says "I don't care what you say..I want what I want and I want it my way and I don't want to do it your way." That type of sin...practiced continually will eventually drown out the HS voice, not because he quitts calling but because we have walked to far away we no longer hear. That is the sin of a hear that is not sold out to Jesus, but rather is in rebellion to him. In that case, that person would never be happy in heaven becuase their heart belongs to them, not to Jesus.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Quote:

BUT regardless of how good we are, we are saved by grace.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

[Gerr]

Gerry. We will never be good enough to enter Heaven. In Heaven there can no longer be forgiveness of sins. Right now you have to repent. In heaven you will not have that option. Thus ... you will have to be changed at the second coming as indicated below. Give this some serious consideration.

RW, it really bothers me that in spite of my repeated declaration that we are saved by grace through faith alone, that I can NEVER EVER earn ONE IOTA of merit for salvation, you and Robert keep either overtly or by implication that I am somehow earning my salvation because I believe in a faith that obeys, in a faith that can trust Jesus enough that He can clean up my life enough that I can STOP WILLFULLY living in sin here and now.

[Taylor]

In relation to your comments two above this...to my previous post. I hear you. I think there is a lot of missunderstanding going on, but I hear you and I think I understand what you are saying. Like I said, I think that both sides agree much more than they think they do..or at least I hope so.

The Bible is clear that:

1. We are saved completely by the grace of Jesus.

2. When Jesus is Lord of our life we will want to continue to change to become more like him as we give all out life to him.

3. Obedience is not legalism when it is done out of love.

4. Victory in the Christian life is not something we do to gain salvation but because it is part of the exciting growth in the life of a christian dedicated to God.

5. None of us deserve to be saved but thank the Lord that God loves us enough to cover us with his robe of righteousness.

It is all quite beautiful actually.

[phkrause]

pk

[Woody]

We can and do sin willfully simply becuase we are sinners and most of our sinning is frankly willful. BUT the closer we come to Jesus the less of that will be happening because we have given more and more of our life over to Him. Some "willful sin" may also be "out of ignorance" ...it is willfully done but not completely understood.

The distinction is in sin that is in absolute rebellion that says "I don't care what you say..I want what I want and I want it my way and I don't want to do it your way." That type of sin...practiced continually will eventually drown out the HS voice, not because he quitts calling but because we have walked to far away we no longer hear. That is the sin of a hear that is not sold out to Jesus, but rather is in rebellion to him. In that case, that person would never be happy in heaven becuase their heart belongs to them, not to Jesus.

BUT regardless of how good we are, we are saved by grace. "Good Works"(like being kind to the neighbor, helping the unfortunate etc) or "obedience" regardless of how "flawed" they may be simply show that we trust God and really truely want to do his will. They are a necessary part of the Christian's life simply because they

1. Benefit the person...(a life devoid, lets say of alcoholism is truely more pleasant for the person and their family as there will be less violence and car wrecks and missed days of work etc..)

2. They benefit those around them by that person being a greater blessing to his neighbor as he is more loving like Jesus would be.

They are the fruit of a life surrendered to Jesus. That is why our "obedience and works" are judged...not becuase they save us but becuase it shows whether Jesus is Lord of our life or not.

Well said. Well said. So appreciate the way you put things.

[Woody]

Quote:

I can STOP WILLFULLY living in sin here and now.

This is what legalists believe. But, you will never achieve this Gerry. If you did ... you would not need the forgiveness of Christ and would not need the life and death of Christ.

This is a dangerous philosophy. I hope you will reconsider it. Re Read Taylor's post. I think she has it spot on.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I can STOP WILLFULLY living in sin here and now.

This is what legalists believe. But, you will never achieve this Gerry. If you did ... you would not need the forgiveness of Christ and would not need the life and death of Christ.

This is a dangerous philosophy. I hope you will reconsider it. Re Read Taylor's post. I think she has it spot on.

Dangerous philosphy to believe what Jesus said? "Go and sin no more?" Dangerous to believe the power of the gospel? "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches to say, "NO" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives IN THIS PRESENT AGE, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ," Titus 2:11-13 NIV.

What could be more dangerous, nay, FATAL, than the doctrine that one can willfully/deliberately keep on sinning and still be in a saved condition? Friend, that lie goes back to the serpent in the garden. God said, "...in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." The devil said,"you shall not surely die." That is the line you are proposing whether you realize it or not.

I am quite satisfied to stand as a legalist with Jesus who commanded: “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” Jn 8:11 NIV. “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” ESV. “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.” NASB. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mt 7:21 ESV.

And stand as legalist with the Apostle John who said: "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." 1 Jn 3:4-10 ESV.

"Loving God means obeying his commands. And God’s commands are not too hard for us, because everyone who is a child of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world—our faith. So the one who conquers the world is the person who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 Jn 5:3-5 NCV.

So if I'm a legalist for believing what the Bible says, then so be it. I'M A LEGALIST!!!

PS.

I read what Taylor posted and I'm generally in agreement with it.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I can STOP WILLFULLY living in sin here and now.

This is what legalists believe. But, you will never achieve this Gerry. If you did ... you would not need the forgiveness of Christ and would not need the life and death of Christ.

This is a dangerous philosophy. I hope you will reconsider it. Re Read Taylor's post. I think she has it spot on.

Are you saying that in order to retain forgiveness, I have to keep on sinning?

[Woody]

Quote:

Are you saying that in order to retain forgiveness, I have to keep on sinning?

If you think you have stopped sinning ... I don't think your on the right road. For one thing ... you are deceived. And you no longer have forgiveness for you are no longer asking for it. And that is a dangerous place to be.

[Taylor]

Ok I think some definition is what is needed.

Here are some facts:

1. Most sins are willful.

2. Jesus died to save us from sin and if he can help an alcoholic give up his willful sin of going to the bar and getting drunk, and he can help the wife abuser stop beating his wife, then God is able to help anyone conquere any sin in their lives if they put their whole trust in him.

We must also define other types of sin:

1. Sin of omission..leaving off what we should have done.

2. Sin of ignorance...we had no idea it was a sin...and those are not "accounted to us".

3. Sins that would normally be classified as "willful" such as lying or cheating...but we are doing our best to gain the victory with Jesus help, we bite our tongue, we walk the other way, but sometimes, before we can even think, a lie slips out becuase we are in such a habbit of lying...but we then make things right and not let it go like we used to.

4. Willful sin (the kind I believe Gerry is talking about) which says "I am in open rebellion towards God. I want to do what I want to do and I don't want or need to change." That type of sin will have to be given up prior to our salvation, not becuase we are saved or lost by particular sins but becuase it means that self is on the throne of our hearts very firmly and God is not Lord of our lives.

The problem comes in here: I think that Redwood possibly thinks that what you are saying Gerry, is that by the time Jesus gets here, everyone who is saved won't have sinned in any aspect for vast periods of time. Now, while this would be true of the sin of alcoholism for an alcoholic who had been dry for 20 years, it may not be true for the person who had the habbit of telling lies and who is doing their best to stop and be completely truthful, but somehow it slipped out much more recently than the 20 year old victory that the alcoholic can talk about. When exactly in the days or weeks, or hours that will end before Jesus comes back...only God knows.

Having said that, the person who is saved, will be living a life of victory, not a victory, perhaps that says, "one million percent of the time I will not even think a wrong thought", not a victory that says "I am not even tempted" (becuase we can't controll the temptations, we only controll what we do with those temptations). But they will experience victory and will be on a continual upward trend. Sure, they might slip once in a while but their heart is sold out to Jesus and they want nothing more than to follow him and they do everything in their power to not "provide for sin" (i.e. if they are addicted to pornography they will put the computer in a public place in the house so as to cut down on the temptation...as it would be embarassing to have your kid or wife find you looking at sick pictures.).

Even if we were to obtain completley victory over every willful sin, we would still need forgiveness for the fact that our best efforts are as filthy rags. We would still need Christ's robe of righteousness. Salvation is by grace alone, victory in the Christian life isn't for legalists...it is for everyone. Some legalists (and I am not refering to anyone I know or anyone on this forum) "do" everything right but they are doing it to "be seen of men" and out of "pride". That type of "Victory" is simply redoubleing their efforts and forgetting their aim. (But we can't judge that because only God can see the hidden motives of people's hearts. I think we wil be surprised as to who gets to heaven and who isn't there..but that is ok because some will be surprised to see us as well. Only God can see the heart.)

God reads the motives of the heart...that is why, although murder is catagorically wrong, God provided cities of refuge for those who accdidently killed or who killed in self-defense. God understands the type of world we live in, the pull on our lives, our past, our inherited problems and he takes all of that into account. However he is a powerful God who is always willing to help any of his children overcome any area of their lives that they are willing to give to him and there is no sin too hard for him to work with.

The only thing we need to worry about is not a "focusing on our sins" but rather a "focus on our Savior and Lord" so that we fall in love with him so much that our feet will be set on a path that has God as the Lord of our life...completley in charge..where we are not in our heart of hearts in rebellion towards him. We still have growth...we will be learining throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity, but the saved person will be completely sold out to God and will want with all their soul, and strength to follow God no matter what.

I hope this makes sense...and isn't just muddying the waters. I am not here to try to judge anyone. I just think we have an incredible message of hope to give to a depressed, dying, and sin sick world.

[Taylor]

Quote:

Are you saying that in order to retain forgiveness, I have to keep on sinning?

If you think you have stopped sinning ... I don't think your on the right road. For one thing ... you are deceived. And you no longer have forgiveness for you are no longer asking for it. And that is a dangerous place to be.

I don't think anyone thinks they are without sin (because we are all guilty of sins of ignorance if nothing else and guilty of sins of "omission" where we were too tired to be reminded by God to do something etc...), but I do think that we can be happy when through God's help we do obtain victory in an area of our life...that is something to celebrate. As we come closer to God he will continue to reveal to us other things in our lives that we haven't given over to Him that we might not have realized before. God's patience with us is truely amazing.

[Gerr]

Please refer to Webster's definition of "willful".

[Gerr]

Quote:

Are you saying that in order to retain forgiveness, I have to keep on sinning?

If you think you have stopped sinning ... I don't think your on the right road. For one thing ... you are deceived. And you no longer have forgiveness for you are no longer asking for it. And that is a dangerous place to be.

You are making the same pronouncements about me as a certain party although you don't know anything about my prayer life. As Taylor pointed out, there are many other sins other than sins of rebellion. There is hardly a prayer (except perhaps grace before meals) that I don't ask for forgiveness. I used to have the same problem as you have now. I could not understand or reconcile what the Apostle John was saying in 1 Jn 3 & 5 with the reality of my experience or what I saw in others, until I understood and grasped the difference between inadvertent sins (sins that bypass the will, knee-jerk reactions) and willful/deliberate/intentional/premeditated or as the Bible calls it, "high hand" (see Nu 15:22-31) sins, you will continue to ignore what the Bible says about victory over sin.

The Good News my friend is that Jesus not only pulls the sinner out of the cesspool, He also washes and cleans him up, perfumes him, and gives him a new suit. There is no point in this whole process where the sinner can lay claim to one iota of merit. He cannot pull himself out. He is too weak. He cannot wash himself. He is filthy inside & out! He cannot make himself smell good. The stench of the filth and his own decomposing body is too much! He only has polluted rags. Therefore the whole process is ALL the work of God! This is dangerous doctrine? Or is this news so good that you think it's too good to be true?

[Woody]

Never questioned the power of God. There is NO excuse for sin. We have all the power of Heaven at our disposal. But then you know that and I am repeating myself which I hate to do. So, I just won't be pushed into your false accusations. Have your fun my friend.