We are onced-saved, always saved!!!

[Robert]

Seems that a number of infants will be saved. If so where does that leave the "safe to save" theories? mel

Bingo! EGW didn't know if all babies would make it to heaven or not. She plainly states she didn't know.

What then are the implications for babies, who died before they reached the age of accountability, to make it to heaven without faith? When were they saved?

Romans 5:18 (is my favorite):

"So then as through one transgression [Adam's - and remember we share his life] there resulted [past tense] condemnation to all men [again, because we share his condemned life], even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's - and we share in His humanity because He assumed "us" at the incarnation] there resulted [past tense - refers to His life & death & resurrection] justification of life to all men.

Christ has already saved the entire human race in Himself. We have (past tense) been justified unto life. We must reject that truth at the age of accountability to be lost. We reject it by not accepting the gospel.

2 Cor 5:4 For the love of Christ controls, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died ; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves (that's growth), but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh [the flesh is lost and under the curse]; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh [because He assumed our humanity under the curse, yet He remained Himself - God], yet now we know Him in this way no longer [at the resurrection He was raised with a glorified humanity]. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature [i.e., "in Christ"]; the old things passed away [the old man/sin]; behold, all things have become new (again, "in Christ"). 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world [the human race] to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God [don't reject this truth when you become accountable]. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

[Woody]

Very good question Stan. I can say that there is a very fine line there, because no matter what you say, people can take it either way. Some just like to say legalism no matter what. As far as I'm concerned there has to be a little give and take. If you, or as you, continue in your relationship with the Lord, the closer you get to him and love him the more you will do for him because you love him not because there is something in it for you.

pk

Good Statements pk. I think it is fine to be legalistically devoted to your beliefs. It is when you tie your behavior to your salvation ... that we have trouble. And then especially when you tie the behavior of others to THEIR salvation.

For example ... I try to protect the hours of the Sabbath in a very legalistic way. I make rules for MYself to guard the edges of the Sabbath. One would think I was a legalist. But I don't tie it to salvation. And I would never think that what the Holy Spirit has lead ME to do is needed by ANYone else.

[phkrause]

Thanks Redwood for your remarks. And I agree with you about salvation and works.

pk

[Robert]

It is when you tie your behavior to your salvation ... that we have trouble.

And to this I agree, but...

That's right,

Let's all keep one thing in mind - "the flesh" is what the Bible terms human emotions & human behavior. It is self-seeking and everything it produces is self-centered. So, even though we come up short, we should aim to allow God to have "the flesh" for if we do not there are consequences.

For example, if I go out and start having sexual relationships outside a committed relationship I am asking for trouble. STD are everywhere. Look at how Africa is suffering from AIDS. That's just one example....

Rob

[phkrause]

Well its not that much better here in the USA. I thought I heard or read a report in the last few weeks that the percentage he in DC was as bad if not worse than africa.

pk

[Gerr]

Maybe I should start preaching disobedience to prove I'm saved by grace?

[olger]

:) That kind of theological absurdity carpets the house that cheap grace built.

`oG

[delta]

Another dangerous side of “Once Saved Always Saved [OSAS]” is a silent recommendation that we must obey man rather than God. This syndrome should be inevitable for the OSAS fans club, and OSAS believers should never denied these real facts!

Here's the point: [a comparative study]

Obedience of “GOD'S COMMANDMENTS” VS Obedience of the commandments/rules/policies of Schools, Jobs, Sports, or Entertainments.....

To obey God's commandments is not important, but when we play basketball/football/tennis the obedience of the laws/rules of those games must be obeyed and none shall called it “legalist”.

To obey God's commandments is not important but when we're in schools we shall obey all rules; and none of the students call their own obedience as “legalist”

To obey God's commandments is not important but when we're in our jobs we must obey all rules, commandments of the offices, and every policies....and none of the employee shall call their own obedience as “legalist”.

However, speaking of our almighty God's commandments, please go ...ooh ..please go and do whatever you want no matter what, and don't worry about breaking His commandments...since the blood of Jesus will save and complete our works through His grace. You don't wanna be a “legalist”, right?

So then, “go and sin some more....!!!”

It doesn't make any difference anyway if you stop sinning or continue sinning...because the blood of Jesus will save you through His grace, right?

How about that?

[delta]

So now for OSAS supporters....

Please, GO AND SIN SOME MORE !!! Don't worry about it.

Well you wanna do it or not? Why nor?

[Gerr]

That kind of theological absurdity carpets the house that cheap grace built.

`oG

Well, if obedience = legalism, it seems logical to me that: disobedience = grace!

So let's go on sinning so that grace may abound! Huh?

[Robert]

Maybe I should start preaching disobedience to prove I'm saved by grace?

You are disobeying the law, hence be glad you are not under it. Comprehend?

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: olger

That kind of theological absurdity carpets the house that cheap grace built.

`oG

Well, if obedience = legalism, it seems logical to me that: disobedience = grace!

So let's go on sinning so that grace may abound! Huh?

What utter self-righteousness....Are you claiming to live Christ's life? That is obedience.

[Robert]

GO AND SIN NO MORE

You know it's downright unconscionable to misquote scripture by making it state what it does not. Jesus is dealing specific sins. He is not telling these individuals to be perfect.

[Robert]

GO AND SIN NO MORE

When Jesus stated this to the woman caught in adultery he had her life of prostitution in mind. Otherwise John is contradicting Christ for he said, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Maybe I should start preaching disobedience to prove I'm saved by grace?

You are disobeying the law, hence be glad you are not under it. Comprehend?

Rob

Oh, yeah. I understand perfectly! I have a few more Betz cells than you give me credit for. Since we are not under law but under grace, and since we're not obeying as perfectly as Christ obeyed anyway, let us practice sin to our hearts content. We're still saved anyway! By what Christ did 2000 yrs ago!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Well' date=' if obedience = legalism, it seems logical to me that: disobedience = grace!

So let's go on sinning so that grace may abound! Huh?

[/quote']

What utter self-righteousness....Are you claiming to live Christ's life? That is obedience.

All or nothing, eh?

"Only the covering which Christ Himself has provided can make us meet to appear in God's presence. This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul. "I counsel thee," He says, "to buy of Me . . . white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." Rev. 3:18. {COL 311.3}

This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isa. 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But

312

Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

"Righteousness is right doing, and it is by their deeds that all will be judged. Our characters are revealed by what we do. The works show whether the faith is genuine. {COL 312.2}

It is not enough for us to believe that Jesus is not an impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. We may believe that the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby man may be saved, and yet we may not through faith make Him our personal Saviour. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth. It is not enough to make a profession of faith in Christ and have our names registered on the church roll. "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by

313

the Spirit which He hath given us." "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; 2:3. This is the genuine evidence of conversion. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness." COL 314.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: delta

GO AND SIN NO MORE

You know it's downright unconscionable to misquote scripture by making it state what it does not. Jesus is dealing specific sins. He is not telling these individuals to be perfect.

That's not a misquote!!!

Sooooooo, was Jesus telling the adulterous woman to stop ONLY the sin of adultery but can go on with practicing other sins? If this woman could, by the grace of God, stop committing one specific sin - adultery, why not gossip? Why not stealing? Why not ______ whatever?

And the man who was healed at the Pool of Bethesda who was also told, "See, you are well! SIN NO MORE, that nothing worse may happen to you," what specific sin was he supposed to stop doing?

And to whom was the Sermon on the Mt command, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect," directed to?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: delta

GO AND SIN NO MORE

When Jesus stated this to the woman caught in adultery he had her life of prostitution in mind. Otherwise John is contradicting Christ for he said, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

No one can claim to be without sin because all have sinnED. But the GOOD NEWS is that we no longer have to keep on living a life of sin! But no. That news is too good to be true for you and RW. The Apostle John says it plainly: "No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either either seen or known Him." 1 Jn 3:6 Amp.

But turn a blind eye to his testimony!

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: delta

GO AND SIN NO MORE

When Jesus stated this to the woman caught in adultery he had her life of prostitution in mind. Otherwise John is contradicting Christ for he said, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

If God can give victory over prostitution, however can't he give victory in other areas. We will always be "soiled by sin" that is why we need Christ's robe of righteousness, but can't we get victory sins as God leads us, even if we may mess up and fall again, can't we once again want victory, accept Jesus' help and attain victory over that particular sin? No matter how "good we are" or "how much victory we have" we will not have the oringial sparkle of a robe that never had the stain of sin on it that is why we need Christ's robe of righteousness to cover us because all our good works are as filty rags. But it is wonderful news that God is powerful enough to help us overcome sins that destroy our lives here on this earth. We will continue to grow in grace and in the knowlege of God when we get to heaven, for sure, but can't we have victory here on this earth as well?

[LifeHiscost]

I bring NOTHING to the table in regards to my salvation. Salvation is a gift Gerry. We can't prove worth or deserve it.

I pray that someday you will experience the joy in this understanding.

You may find joy in assured salvation, Redwood, even while falling short in sinful behavior. However there are some who find continued growth in joy in glorifying God by practicing the righteousness God works out in their life.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 KJV

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."1 Corinthians 6:12 NKJV

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."1 Corinthians 6:20 KJV

I have never known anyone who has stated how they glorified God in their fornication or their adultery or their ability to chugalug a case of beer. I've never seen or heard of anyone who said praise God when they punched somebody out or took the Lord's name in vain, and I've never heard anyone who sang songs of joy to the Lord while subjugating their neighbor to indignities or putting fear in the minds of those who wouldn't join them in their own profligate lifestyle.

So it would seem to me some are far more interested in feelings of assured salvation and have very little interest in glorifying the Lord of glory Who hung on the cross for all of us, Who has a prime objective of delivering, the sooner the better, from all besetting sin that brings misery and pain, not only to the perpetrator but to all those around.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13 NKJV

Is it wrong then, to glory in our salvation despite our lack? Not in my estimation. However I imagine those who claim victory through the power of Jesus' work in there lives, will be joyful and assured when meeting the Lord of glory face to face, as well as after the testimony of personal triumph through Him while on this earth.

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. " Revelation 12:10,11 KJV

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matthew 25:21 KJV

Regards!

[phkrause]

Delta I really liked what you had to say and the way you said it. I'd add also that many that say that the Sabbath has no meaning have no problem with the laws of man which say Sunday is the day to worship. So I'm guessing that worshiping on Sunday or Friday is not legalistic.

pk

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Maybe I should start preaching disobedience to prove I'm saved by grace?

You are disobeying the law, hence be glad you are not under it. Comprehend?

Rob

Unfortunately most will just not grasp this Rob.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: delta

GO AND SIN NO MORE

You know it's downright unconscionable to misquote scripture by making it state what it does not. Jesus is dealing specific sins. He is not telling these individuals to be perfect.

Exactly. He would keep telling this to her 70 X 7 .

[Woody]

The point is LifeHiscost ... The belief of legalism ... is a hellish belief. I have no desire to go there. There is no hope and no assurance in that belief. I get sick thinking about it and have no desire to get close to it.

[delta]

Uncle Redwood,

Without any disrespect, I just wanna tell you to be careful of what you said and watch out your mouth, please...if you want! I also just wondered where you stand. What's is your foundation: The Bible or your “unfallen” mind?

Last week you said that “he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us.". (What is the meaning of NEVER, Redwood? Tell your students, please.)

However, just a couple days ago you said on posting # 232421: “Gerry ... first you say "How can you tell who is really saved". My response is " That is not my job".

BUT on posting # 232336 you also said, “That is not our job. We are to look to Jesus for our salvation. Not men. And we are not to judge men. That is the job of God.

WHAT??? Wait a minute uncle Redwood!!!

You're the one that said “God NEVER takes that saved status away from us” but you're also the one on the first frontline proclaiming that you don't know and can't tell who's really saved.

Wow....amazing!

Why don't you tell everyone like this:

"Jesus and myself have the same knowledge of who's saved because I believe that “he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us."" ???

Well, does Jesus has a standard to determinde who will be saved? What is that? Or "Once saved always saved" no matter what; Or no matter if any person will be faithfull to the end?