We are onced-saved, always saved!!!

[Woody]

Soooooooo, how can you tell who is REALLY saved among all those who claim to be saved when in reality some are not?

How can we tell?

That is not our job. We are to look to Jesus for our salvation. Not men. And we are not to judge men. That is the job of God.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Soooooooo, how can you tell who is REALLY saved among all those who claim to be saved when in reality some are not?

How can we tell?

That is not our job. We are to look to Jesus for our salvation. Not men. And we are not to judge men. That is the job of God.

You don't accept everything I say. Why not? Are you judging me for rejecting what I say?

You are certainly correct that it is NOT our job to judge people whether they are saved or lost. But our Lord has warned us: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 7:15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. And Paul admonished us: "Test everything. Hold on to the good." 1 Thes 5:21. The Bible has given us some clues as to which direction a person is going or the nature of their teaching and therefore to beware of.

Here are a few:

1. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 7:15-20). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

2. "Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 2:4-6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

3. "But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.".

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 2:11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society

4. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you;depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 7:21-23). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

5. "We know thatwe have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 3:14-15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

6. "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s 2 seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God,nor is the one who does not love his brother."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 3:6-10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

7. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,3 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed,you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Co 6:9-11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

No doubt you or others can add more.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Legalist!

Is that how you defend your position?

It's what you are....One minute you say do your best and God makes up for it (which is still a subtle form of legalism) and the next moment you are demanding full compliance with the law. Gal 3:10 was written for folks just like yourself. In a nutshell you teach legalism.

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Soooooooo, how can you tell who is REALLY saved among all those who claim to be saved when in reality some are not?

How can we tell?

That is not our job. We are to look to Jesus for our salvation. Not men. And we are not to judge men. That is the job of God.

You don't accept everything I say. Why not? Are you judging me for rejecting what I say?

Gerry ... first you say "How can you tell who is really saved". My response is " That is not my job".

Then you say "You don't accept everything I say. Why not? Are you judging me for rejecting what I say?

Next I will say ... NO. I do not judge you. I only judge what your teachings are. Just because your teachings are wrong ... does not mean you are lost. WE are not saved by the knowledge we posses. This is not a contest.

I hope that clarifies it. I would never judge you ... just your words.

[Gerr]

I was just pointing out to you that questioning/examining the claims of someone is actually a judgment of that teaching/claim. But I would never say a person is saved or lost beyond what Scriptures claim. Scripture is perfectly clear to me that when a sinner turns to God, repents, and abandons his life of sin, he is saved. If that same person turns away from God and resumes his old life of sin, he is lost. See Ez 18. If we can't preach that message, then there is NO message.

The problem comes when someone claims you can hang on to sin and still be in a saved condition. Sin is a deadly poison. How can God save a person that wants to keep drinking it?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Is that how you defend your position?

It's what you are....One minute you say do your best and God makes up for it (which is still a subtle form of legalism) and the next moment you are demanding full compliance with the law. Gal 3:10 was written for folks just like yourself. In a nutshell you teach legalism.

Rob

You have persistently misrepresented what I have been saying because you have the notion that any mention of good works/obedience is legalism. You keep setting up a straw man that I have yet to see set up by someone other than you.

Let me repeat what I have consistently maintained. What I do is NEVER the basis/ground for my salvation. NEVER! NEVER! But I also maintain that I am God's workmanship, "created IN CHRIST Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10 ESV.

Is the work of God in the believer the basis for his acceptance with God? NO!!! But it is the evidence that the justification he claims of being "in Christ" has taken root. It is acceptable to God because it is His work, perfect because wherever it falls short, it is always covered by the righteousness of Christ. That is what it means to be "in Christ." Faith in being "in Christ" and in what He did 2000 yrs ago without being made evident by works of obedience NOW is dead. A body, unless it is breathing and moving is DEAD! It soon decomposes and stinks! That is the part you can't or refuses to understand. You just keep on calling it LEGALISM! Giving half of the gospel is no gospel at all!

[Robert]

But it [WORKS OF FAITH] is the evidence that the justification he claims of being "in Christ" has taken root.

Yes, and Rahab (while still a prostitute) was justified by assisting the spies. No where in the Ten Commandments does it say, "Thou shall help thy neighbor's spies". teehe

Let me repeat this FACT again, only this time let me quote James:

2:25 Rahab the prostitute is another example of this. She was made right with God by her actions [i.e., her actions proved that her faith was genuine] – when [she gave up prostitution, no? No, when] she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.

You see if the above is not true then no matter how many works you do they ain't good enough because you are failing to live up to the life of Christ. You are failing to live His life of complete selflessness and His life answers "the whole law" not just those rules that you keep.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

It's what you are....One minute you say do your best and God makes up for it (which is still a subtle form of legalism) and the next moment you are demanding full compliance with the law. Gal 3:10 was written for folks just like yourself. In a nutshell you teach legalism.

Rob

You have persistently misrepresented what I have been saying because you have the notion that any mention of good works/obedience is legalism. You keep setting up a straw man that I have yet to see set up by someone other than you.

Let me repeat what I have consistently maintained. What I do is NEVER the basis/ground for my salvation. NEVER! NEVER! But I also maintain that I am God's workmanship' date=' "created IN CHRIST Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10 ESV.

Is the work of God in the believer the basis for his acceptance with God? NO!!! But it is the evidence that the justification he claims of being "in Christ" has taken root. It is acceptable to God because it is His work, perfect because wherever it falls short, it is always covered by the righteousness of Christ. That is what it means to be "in Christ." Faith in being "in Christ" and in what He did 2000 yrs ago without being made evident by works of obedience NOW is dead. A body, unless it is breathing and moving is DEAD! It soon decomposes and stinks! That is the part you can't or refuses to understand. You just keep on calling it LEGALISM! Giving half of the gospel is no gospel at all!

[/quote']

I will join Rob this time in saying this is clearly LEGALISM. Gerry ... we all sin and fall short. We WILL sin. This is why Christ died.IT doesn't mean our relationship is dead. Do you not have to repent any more? We will always need to repent. This is why I continue to say that I will sin till the day I die and thus the works Christ does in me are as filthy rags towards my salvation. It is simple. I bring NOTHING to the table in regards to my salvation. Salvation is a gift Gerry. We can't prove worth or deserve it.

I pray that someday you will experience the joy in this understanding.

[Robert]

PC- ST

PT- The Signs of the Times

DT- 06-09-81

AT- Idolatry Punished

PR- 21

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped [i.e., filthy rags]. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

You see right now we aren't living a life which measures with the life of Christ. Does that mean that there's no growth in the Christian's life. No!

Our works of faith are brought into judgment because there is an accuser. So Christ will use our works of faith (Rahab assisting the spies, for example) to prove not our righteousness, but our faith in Christ who is our righteousness.

Rob

[Woody]

[Taylor]

Just my two cents here, not aimed at anyone, just at the discussion:

I must say, trying to do God's will, through his power isn't legalism...it is a priviledge. But we are saved by grace alone because none of us "deserve" salvation no matter how "good" we are at "keeping the law". But the verse still stands of "If you love me, keep my commandments." Can we keep them perfectly? No. But out of love, can we choose to do what God asks? Yes. A saved person will have a heart which wants nothing more but to follow God in every aspect, including keeping his law. Now that person may not know all there is to know, they will fall short of doing anything perfectly even those things which they do know, but to them it is a priviledge to trust God enough to want with all their hearts to live for Him to the best of their ability to surrender to God and His will for their lives.

One can't accept God as Savior and not accept him as Lord. When God is Lord of our lives we will stop arguing saying "Lord, I know you say ___________, but I think it should be this way." Does that mean we quitt thinking for ourselves and become robots? Not at all, but it means that we recognize that God knows infinately more than we do and we can trust his heart so much that we never have any reason to fear because he would never ask anything of us that was not for our ultimate good. It doesn't have to be legalism to obey or to see a necesity of obeying...it can be love..love to God in gratitude for all he has done, in demonstration of a trusting relationship. That is not a burden, that is a priviledge and a joy and is done out of gratitude for a God whose grace is bigger than any sin. He doesn't just change people at the second coming, he is in the process of changing hearts and lives while we live on this earth. He isn't just interested in the final product he is also interested in the process, the learning, the increased happiness here on this earth which comes from a life surrendered to God. Legalism only becomes legalism when it is what "saves us". We are saved through grace alone, because even if we were as perfect as any human could ever attain, it still doesn't measure up to God's perfection.

If you were to go to the royal mint in London, and take a tour you would be shown a scale that is incredibly precise and sensative. The guide takes two pieces of paper of equal size and weight and places them on the balance and the balance is pretty evenly balanced. He then removes one piece and signs his name on it and puts it back on the scale. The side with his signature immediately sinks to the bottom. You see, it isn't our good deeds versus our bad deeds that tips the scale, it is whether Jesus's name is written on our hearts. And when his name is written on our hearts, he is Lord of our life, we want to follow everything he says simply because we love him but in the end the ONLY thing that tips the scale is Jesus....and his amazing grace. That is why we sing the song "Jesus name of above all names, beautiful savior..."

[Gerr]

Quote:

I pray that someday you will experience the joy in this understanding.

If you have joy because Christ gets you out of the cesspool, think how much more joy you would have if you

had enough faith to believe that He ALSO washes and cleans you up, perfumes you to make you smell good instead of remaining smelly, and then

gives you a new suit.

If that is legalism, then somebody has a misunderstanding of what legalism is!

[Gerr]

PC- ST

PT- The Signs of the Times

DT- 06-09-81

AT- Idolatry Punished

PR- 21

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped [i.e., filthy rags]. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

You see right now we aren't living a life which measures with the life of Christ. Does that mean that there's no growth in the Christian's life. No!

Our works of faith are brought into judgment because there is an accuser. So Christ will use our works of faith (Rahab assisting the spies, for example) to prove not our righteousness, but our faith in Christ who is our righteousness.

Rob

You pay lip service to growth, but do not say what it is!

What is growth? Less loving or more loving? Less obedient or more obedient? Less like Christ or more like Christ?

[Gerr]

What is it about repentance and conversion you guys don't understand?

[Taylor]

Please see my comment above for a much more complete picture. But yes, Gerry I do have to agree with you on one point and that is that I have seen God do amazing things in the lives of people, such as the wife-beater becoming a loving husband, the alcoholic becoming a productive member of society, the profoundly discouraged finding hope in Jesus. God is in the business of changing lives not only here but for all eternity, helping us to daily grow in His plan for our lives. That is indeed exciting. I am also sooo grateful for a God who gives us His robe to cover our filthiness and who is patient enough to realize that things can take time. He doesn't expect instant and complete and never failing success, but he is able to change the most hardened of us and that is indeed good news. But the best news of all is that we are saved through his grace, and when we realize that God wants us in heaven even more than we want to be there, we can do nothing else than want to follow him through all the twists and turns of life.

[Woody]

Just my two cents here, not aimed at anyone, just at the discussion:

I must say, trying to do God's will, through his power isn't legalism...it is a priviledge. But we are saved by grace alone because none of us "deserve" salvation no matter how "good" we are at "keeping the law". But the verse still stands of "If you love me, keep my commandments." Can we keep them perfectly? No. But out of love, can we choose to do what God asks? Yes. A saved person will have a heart which wants nothing more but to follow God in every aspect, including keeping his law. Now that person may not know all there is to know, they will fall short of doing anything perfectly even those things which they do know, but to them it is a priviledge to trust God enough to want with all their hearts to live for Him to the best of their ability to surrender to God and His will for their lives.

One can't accept God as Savior and not accept him as Lord. When God is Lord of our lives we will stop arguing saying "Lord, I know you say ___________, but I think it should be this way." Does that mean we quitt thinking for ourselves and become robots? Not at all, but it means that we recognize that God knows infinately more than we do and we can trust his heart so much that we never have any reason to fear because he would never ask anything of us that was not for our ultimate good. It doesn't have to be legalism to obey or to see a necesity of obeying...it can be love..love to God in gratitude for all he has done, in demonstration of a trusting relationship. That is not a burden, that is a priviledge and a joy and is done out of gratitude for a God whose grace is bigger than any sin. He doesn't just change people at the second coming, he is in the process of changing hearts and lives while we live on this earth. He isn't just interested in the final product he is also interested in the process, the learning, the increased happiness here on this earth which comes from a life surrendered to God. Legalism only becomes legalism when it is what "saves us". We are saved through grace alone, because even if we were as perfect as any human could ever attain, it still doesn't measure up to God's perfection.

If you were to go to the royal mint in London, and take a tour you would be shown a scale that is incredibly precise and sensative. The guide takes two pieces of paper of equal size and weight and places them on the balance and the balance is pretty evenly balanced. He then removes one piece and signs his name on it and puts it back on the scale. The side with his signature immediately sinks to the bottom. You see, it isn't our good deeds versus our bad deeds that tips the scale, it is whether Jesus's name is written on our hearts. And when his name is written on our hearts, he is Lord of our life, we want to follow everything he says simply because we love him but in the end the ONLY thing that tips the scale is Jesus....and his amazing grace. That is why we sing the song "Jesus name of above all names, beautiful savior..."

Thanks Taylor ... as usual ... you have such a wonderful and totally accurate way of explaining things ... far better than the rest of us can. I am going to print this out so that I can have it to share with others. I've never seen it so clearly explained.

Thank you Thank you.

[Taylor]

If anything I say can be of benefit to anyone, then it was worth the time to post it. I just see God as such an incredibly awesome God who loves us so completely that at times I just can't keep my mouth shut about the amazing love, grace, transforming power of our God. The reason we will all cast our crowns at His feet when we get to heaven, is that we will be completely overwhelemed with His unconditional love for us. It will become painfully apparent that we did nothing to get there, but we willl also marvel at his patience and love in working with us while here on this earth, to come closer and closer to his ideal for our lives. God could just snap his fingers and "fix us" but he works with us and in the process, we learn that we can trust our loving heavenly father who never leaves us nor forsakes us but who wants our happiness not only in eternity but here on this earth as well. Praise God for changed lives here on this earth, and for eternity in heaven to enjoy learning even more about a God who loves us this much to stay involved with us every step of the way.

[Woody]

Yes. And I think that one of the reasons he lets us struggle here on earth is to show the horrible results of Satans way. And it shows the results that we have to live in it ... not being able to really obey.

God does not want us to be mired in sin. But it is His will. He wants to have us see the results of sin. He wants us to so hate it that we would NEVER choose Satan's way again.

In a way ... this experiment of Earth is a test tube. It shows that we are powerless and that sin and Satan's way is not the best.

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness. This the sinner owes to the law. But he is incapable of rendering it." Ellen White in FW p.101

[Taylor]

Yes, Redwood! God is allowing sin to take it's course, not so we will become discouraged with how hard it is to obey but so we will see the dreadful results of sin and like you say we will hate it so much that we would never ever choose to rebell in heaven and start this sorry process over again. It isn't that we will be robots in heaven, incapable of sinning, it is just that we will have our hearts so sold out to Jesus and his will for our lives that we would never consider rebellion again.

I think our focus shouldn't be on "how much we can't keep the law..or how imperfectly we do keep it", but "how can we come to know Jesus so well that we will want nothing more than Jesus to completely fill our hearts and lives." We know we will never ever be perfect and anyone who thinks we will be hasn't realized that we are saved by grace. But we can live in the joy of knowing that God is willing, able, and anxious to work with us on a daily basis to get to him Him so well that we would never choose to bring sin into the world made new. He is in the business of changing lives and recreating stony hearts into soft hearts and if we let him he will mold us to become more like him. This is a priviledge, not a duty and we allow him in our lives completely out of gratitude for his amazing love and grace.

[Woody]

[melvin mccarty]

Yes the "explanations" that we come up with can sound so reasonable until we stop to analyse them. For instance are there still beings somewhere who are so stupid that they haven't caught the message yet? Seems that a number of infants will be saved. If so where does that leave the "safe to save" theories? I could go on and on and on. Are we just kidding ourselves?....mel

[Woody]

Yes the "explanations" that we come up with can sound so reasonable until we stop to analyse them. For instance are there still beings somewhere who are so stupid that they haven't caught the message yet? Seems that a number of infants will be saved. If so where does that leave the "safe to save" theories? I could go on and on and on. Are we just kidding ourselves?....mel

God knows those who are safe to save. And the drama of sin on this stage of Earth will ensure that none will EVER slip again as Lucifer who was created PERFECT did.

[Stan]

soooo (not directed at the last post or poster...)

The difference between committed to something and legalism is?

[phkrause]

Very good question Stan. I can say that there is a very fine line there, because no matter what you say, people can take it either way. Some just like to say legalism no matter what. As far as I'm concerned there has to be a little give and take. If you, or as you, continue in your relationship with the Lord, the closer you get to him and love him the more you will do for him because you love him not because there is something in it for you.

pk

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

PC- ST

PT- The Signs of the Times

DT- 06-09-81

AT- Idolatry Punished

PR- 21

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped [i.e., filthy rags]. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

You see right now we aren't living a life which measures with the life of Christ. Does that mean that there's no growth in the Christian's life. No!

Our works of faith are brought into judgment because there is an accuser. So Christ will use our works of faith (Rahab assisting the spies, for example) to prove not our righteousness, but our faith in Christ who is our righteousness.

Rob

What is growth? ... Less obedient or more obedient?

Obedience? You mean partial obedience! Please don't use the word obedience because you are not fully living Christ's life. Christ lived a life of obedience, you are coming up short, which means you are never measuring up to length, depth and height of the law's demands - never (see Rom 3:21).

Now, having said that, I'll tell you what I mean by growth. Go to 2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Question: What does the phrase mean "the glory of the Lord"? It mean His goodness - His agape. That same phrase is used in 1 Cor 13:12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face..."

It's hard to understand a selfless love. Humans can love only selfishly. In other words we do things to get something back in return. Maybe it's recognition...or fame...or a award? But that's not agape, that's self-love; what the Bible calls iniquity.

So it's hard to understand God's love. So for now we see His agape as a "poor reflection as in a mirror...." The fact we can't fully understand it means we can't fully reflect it. And so we fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:21).

So growth isn't "obedience". Obedience is obeying the law. Anything that falls short of that isn't obedience at all. Let's all get real here....

Growth is reflecting His agape more and more in our lives. It happens as we reflect on the life of Christ. It happens as we then learn to walk in the Spirit.

Rob