Administrators Gail Posted March 29, 2009 Administrators Posted March 29, 2009 As always, I love your emoticon! Marvin Moore puts it this way- putting yourself on the side of Christ. We don't become perfect suddenly when we choose to accept salvation, but we grow, first as baby Christians, onward to spiritual maturity (completeness or perfection as defined in James 1:4) While we are growing, God doesn't count us as lost. We will stumble along the way. But as long as we depend on Christ, surrender our will to Him and walk with Him and follow His example, and allow the Spirit to change us as HE will, we retain our position in Him. And that is one of being saved. God is a God of mercy, not sitting waiting for people to trip up so that He can blame and torment them. That is what Satan does. God's glory comes in what He can do for and in you :) Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Woody Posted March 29, 2009 Posted March 29, 2009 TU Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die..... Gerry, again this is OC language! If you read the whole context it states, "the person who sins that person will die." Have you sinned? Then you must die. That's OC...I'm under the NC. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 there is more than one way that the Holy SPirit leads. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way,...." John 14:6 KJV And what other way is there, Redwood? "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."Proverbs 14:12 NIV "Search the scriptures;...they are they which testify of me."John 5:39 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 "the person who sins that person will die." Have you sinned? Then you must die. That's OC...I'm under the NC. Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."1 Cor 15:31 KJV Die to what? A: The nature....Big difference! Under the OC you died....Under the new you died "in Christ". You accepted this by faith. In response you surrender your nature to the cross - hence, "I die daily"! It's a metaphor. Rob Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 30, 2009 Moderators Posted March 30, 2009 I always thought that "once saved, always saved" was a Baptist concept. That's what my Baptist friends always kept telling me....that no matter what I did after I accepted Jesus as my Savior, that I was saved. That doesn't sound *right* to me. If I turn away from God and do something contrary to what He would want me to do, then where is the accountability? I would think I need to repent and ask for forgiveness. But then, I also think that God looks on the heart - on the trail that we are on. If I am on the trail that leads to God, then I think He takes that into account, especially if I screw up, but for some reason, I might die without being able to ask for forgiveness. It would have been in my heart to ask for forgiveness, and I think God knows that. (Am I making myself clear as mud here?) Right on, Pam! When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father’s commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion. {FW 50.1} White, E. G. (1979; 2002). Faith and Works (50). Southern Publishing Association. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 30, 2009 Moderators Posted March 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die..... Gerry, again this is OC language! If you read the whole context it states, "the person who sins that person will die." Have you sinned? Then you must die. That's OC...I'm under the NC. Did God require of Moses, Abel, Abraham, David, Samson, etc. that he does not require of Robert? Impossible!!!!!!!!!!! OT: "Do not show partiality..." Dt 1:17 NT: "Do nothing out of favoritism." 1 Tim 5:21. OT: "The soul who sins shall die," Ez 18:4. NT: "The wages of sin is death," Rom 6:23. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. . . . For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:24- 26). It is essential to have faith in Jesus, and to believe you are saved through Him; but there is danger in taking the position that many do take in saying, "I am saved." Many have said: "You must do good works, and you will live"; but apart from Christ no one can do good works. Many at the present day say, "Believe, only believe, and live." Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old [bEGIN P.374] Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1} In order to meet the requirements of the law, our faith must grasp the righteousness of Christ, accepting it as our righteousness. Through union with Christ, through acceptance of His righteousness by faith, we may be qualified to work the works of God, to be colaborers with Christ. If you are willing to drift along with the current of evil, and do not cooperate with the heavenly agencies in restraining transgression in your family, and in the church, in order that everlasting righteousness may be brought in, you do not have faith. Faith works by love and purifies the soul. Through faith the Holy Spirit works in the heart to create holiness therein; but this cannot be done unless the human agent will work with Christ. We can be fitted for heaven only through the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart; for we must have Christ’s righteousness as our credentials if we would find access to the Father. In order that we may have the righteousness of Christ, we need daily to be transformed by the influence of the Spirit, to be a partaker of the divine nature. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to elevate the taste, to sanctify the heart, to ennoble the whole man. {1SM 374.1} White, E. G. (1958; 2002). Selected Messages From the Writings of Ellen G. White, Book 1; Selected Messages, Book 1 (373). Review and Herald Publishing Association. When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father’s commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion. {FW 50.1} White, E. G. (1979; 2002). Faith and Works (50). Southern Publishing Association. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 30, 2009 Moderators Posted March 30, 2009 Quote: I find that most Christians are sincere and just interpret scripture differently than you might. You say that scripture 'plainly' says something. But, I don't think it is all that plain. Great minds can differ. Agreed that we can all be sincere and interpret Scripture differently. What I object to is your statement, "What matters is ... the Holy Spirit speaking to you personally." No way the Holy Spirit tells one person to keep one commandment and ignore the others. No way the HS tells one person "the soul who sins shall die" and tells another person the soul who sins shall live forever! THE WORD IS the rule/canon/measuring stick by which we measure/judge ALL doctrines, not what a person thinks the HS is telling them personally. There are people who claim they hear voices telling them to kill! When we rely on what we think some spirit is telling us, how can we tell that that spirit is from above? We have to go back to the Word! Quote: We learn in stages. Very true!!! Quote: The Holy Spirit has much better knowledge about what someone should believe and when ... than either you or I. You say: "The problem as I see it is that too many do not take what the Bible plainly says." Well ... if one is to try to sit in judgment ... I could say this about you from the posts I have read of yours. But, while I could say that ... I do think that would be wrong to say. Just as the people you speak of ... I think that you and they are honest in attempting to know God's word. It is Okay to have different understanding of scripture. The Lord in His wisdom may find it necessary to test some one or to give them knowledge of a doctrine ... but only when we get to Heaven will we have a full knowledge of Truth. Are you saying nothing is plain in Scripture? That everything is fuzzy and open to different interpretations? Is there something unclear about: "The soul that sins shall die?" "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy?" When Jesus comes, "every eye will see Him?" "Faith without works is DEAD?" etc. etc. Quote
delta Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Whosoever believe “once saved always saved” no matter or whatever or he/she is doing or will do in the future...let that person to be the first who invite any robber ( Christian robbers) as well as any murderer (Christian murderers, of course) to tell the assurance of this blessed assurance doctrine--'once saved always saved' even though after stealing his/her lifesavings and properties or even though after killing his/her mom and dad, sisters, sons or daughters. Then the next step to be told to those evildoers are: “I know I lost my money, properties and especially my family members and it's really hurts me. But don't worry since your crimes must never blot your name out of the Book of Life.” “Though any sin and crime you planned for the future, go ahead and do it. The blood of Jesus guaranteed your salvation. You're saved. Now do whatever you want. I just wanna teach you that the people who are repent and do the obedience of God's commandments are the most stupid person on earth. And I believe Jesus agree with me” We don't need obedience. We don't need 'Go and sin no more'. We don't need repentance. We don't need 'victory over sin' All we need is Jesus. Once saved always saved. Don't worry, you're saved, Okay? (You don't need to do your part since your salvation is 100% guaranteed).” “ Sooner or later if any unfortunate done by any Christian evildoers happened to you that believe this doctrine, you must persuade God that the evildoers must be in heaven though they never repent and keep doing the same mistakes all of their lives—and you must thank God for that. Quote
Robert Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Gerry, again this is OC language! If you read the whole context it states, "the person who sins that person will die." Have you sinned? Then you must die. That's OC...I'm under the NC. [/quote'][color:blue] Did God require of Moses, Abel, Abraham, David, Samson, etc. that he does not require of Robert? Impossible!!!!!!!!!!! Gerry, what's impossible is for you to understand that the OC was never a method of salvation. It was designed to open the eyes of the self-righteous so they might open their eyes to JBF. Read Gal chapter five for some serious assistance. Rob Quote
Robert Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 We don't need 'Go and sin no more'.....We don't need repentance. If you're not sinning no more then you don't need to repent. Hmmm? Quote
Robert Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 No way the HS tells one person "the soul who sins shall die" and tells another person the soul who sins shall live forever! And you are going to die forever (the 2nd death) unless you accept your position "in Christ". In Him you obeyed...in Him you died and in Him you have a new glorified life in the heavenly places right this minute. That life stands perfect before God's law. Reject this truth and you can kiss it all goodbye. Keep on this works trip and you'll miss out. Rob Quote
delta Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Dear Robert, Calm down, slow down...and relax a little bit please. Do you want some water? Quote
Woody Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 It seemed to me that Delta was the one all heated and shouting about. How about an ice bath? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
delta Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 It seemed to me that Redwood was the one that refusing to see the larger pictures especially r/t Robert's comments. Anyway, nice catch! Quote
Woody Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Nice to see you Delta. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
LifeHiscost Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord' date=' I die daily."1 Cor 15:31 KJV Die to what? A: The nature....Big difference! Under the OC you died....Under the new you died "in Christ". You accepted this by faith. In response you surrender your nature to the cross - hence, "I die daily"! It's a metaphor. Rob [/quote'] I'm supposing this is seen by you as a metaphor also. "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"James 2:20 KJV And if it is, that would make faith a metaphor also, so you have no need for faith to be assured of salvation either. That seems to be contrary to Divine reality. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."Hebrews 11:6 KJV And since "diligently seeking" is a work that is rewarded, it also would play no part in the plan of salvation. Sounds like a good recipe for obtaining eternal darkness. "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."John 3:21 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators Gerr Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Quote: Gerry, again this is OC language! If you read the whole context it states, "the person who sins that person will die." Have you sinned? Then you must die. That's OC...I'm under the NC. Did God require of Moses, Abel, Abraham, David, Samson, etc. that he does not require of Robert? Impossible!!!!!!!!!!! Gerry, what's impossible is for you to understand that the OC was never a method of salvation. It was designed to open the eyes of the self-righteous so they might open their eyes to JBF. Read Gal chapter five for some serious assistance. Rob And what you apparently don't understand is that the everlasting covenant is about saving mankind. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo No way the HS tells one person "the soul who sins shall die" and tells another person the soul who sins shall live forever! And you are going to die forever (the 2nd death) unless you accept your position "in Christ". In Him you obeyed...in Him you died and in Him you have a new glorified life in the heavenly places right this minute. That life stands perfect before God's law. Reject this truth and you can kiss it all goodbye. Keep on this works trip and you'll miss out. Rob Christ is my substitute. He lived, died, resurrected for me. His righteousness stands for mine. I accept all of those. What I reject is your notion that because has done all of those for me that I no longer have to obey! (Or I should say, HALF obey, because you acknowledge the last 6 of the 10c as standard for Christian living but not the first four.) That because He has done all those things for me that He doesn't have to clean up my act! We have been going round and round this subject for years now, that you are giving ONLY HALF of the gospel. The full gospel is that God not only gets you out of the cesspool; He also washes you! Quote
Not Cloned Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I am intrigued by this discussion. The thing that scares me about “once saved always saved” is the obvious conclusion that once you have a true salvation experience you cannot lose it. It therefore is called “eternal security”. But this seems to be the normal scenario. A man of the world who participates regularly in various ungodly thoughts and activities is invited to attend an evangelistic service. He has a conversion experience as that Holy Spirit convicts his heart and he gives his life to God. He is not directed as to how to keep that experience alive and on returning home does not get the support that he needs and instead returns to his old friends and his old life. Those that were with him at the meetings see that his life is no different than before the evangelistic meeting and pull him aside and say to him that the deep spiritual experience that he thought that he had at the meetings could not have been true and that he was never truly converted otherwise he would not be doing the things that he is doing. He therefore accepts the wisdom of these spiritual associates and does not accept his experience as legitimate. The next time if it ever comes about, that he attends another meeting it might very well be that he will doubt another true experience, and this all too common experience is called eternal insecurity. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 31, 2009 Members Posted March 31, 2009 Quote: The thing that scares me about “once saved always saved” is the obvious conclusion that once you have a true salvation experience you cannot lose it. That's why I said it reminded me of how my Baptist friends were talking to me about being saved. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Not Cloned Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Makes sence Pam. Your comment brought this example to my thinking. The theological discussion may be important but the end result of a once saved always saved philosophy is what concerns me most. We have a want-to-be Christians world that do not have an idea of how to get security in Christ because they have been taught to doubt a true conversion experience. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
BobRyan Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 1. OSAS is pure Calvinist mythology - and denies key Bible texts as already pointed out in Ezek 18, Matt 18, John 15, Romans 11, (not to mention 1Tim 4 and Heb 6.). 2. Adventist doctrine is clearly Arminian -- which poses a problem for those trying to reach across the isle for a slice of Calvinism in the form of OSAS. 3. 4 Point Calvinists have the BEST OSAS argument of all - because they can have OSAS PLUS assurance. They get to that wonderful spot by tossing the Bible doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" out the window. Once you no longer need to persevere you can actually have BOTH OSAS AND assurance. 4. 5 Point Calvinists are stuck with an OSAS that offers no assurance of salvation at all - since their model requires that they "deny assurance ever happened" if ten years from today you "fail to persevere". 5. For the Arminian - you have only one option - ACCEPT the Bible doctrine of perseverance of the saints along with the assurance of salvation - and throw the man-made-tradition of OSAS out the window. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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