We are onced-saved, always saved!!!

[LifeHiscost]

if one is sinless he doesn't need Christ's righteousness.

A contradiction in terms. One cannot be sinless without Christ's righteousness, neither now nor after the resurrection.

"Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy."

Revelation 15:4 NIV

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."Galatians 2:20 KJV

"...that no flesh may glory before Him;

and of Him ye -- ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,

that, according as it hath been written, `He who is glorying -- in the Lord let him glory.' " 1Cor 1:29-31 YLT

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I rather like this quote by a cousin of mine

“To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

See if you can guess the author.

og

We are saved by works. Just not our works.

"...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. "Philippians 2:13 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Soooooooooooooo, when you turn your back on Him, are you still saved?

"Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 3:7 KJV

Regards!

[olger]

The fruit determines the tree, friends (Matthew 7:18; 12:33). Dietrich Bonhoeffer introduced us to "cheap grace" over 50 years ago. But today's popular evangelicalism, awash with sloppy agape and warm fuzzies, has carried the notion of “cheap grace” to the limits of triviality.

Grace is exalted-conduct diminished, forgiveness flourishes-obedience ignored. This idea comes out clear when one raises the question of the obedience of the Christian. “It is all of grace!” is touted as an answer of all answers. It is designed to diffuse & excuse failures and sin. I have never seen any good fruit coming from this doctrine, especially in our counseling ministry.

Cheap grace has been no less disastrous to our own spiritual lives. Instead of opening up the way to Christ it has closed it. Instead of calling us to follow Christ , it has hardened us in our disobedience. When people follow cheap grace to its logical outcome, this results in the teaching of such theological absurdities as anti-nomianism, and OSAS.

rejoice always,

oG

[lazarus]

The fruit determines the tree, friends (Matthew 7:18; 12:33).

Fruit reveals it does not determine. An apple tree does not become an apple tree because apples appear. It reveals what kind of tree it is by the fruit it produces.

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep, but are really wolves that will tear you apart. 16You can detect them by the way they act, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit. You don’t pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles. 17A healthy tree produces good fruit, and an unhealthy tree produces bad fruit. 18A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20Yes, the way to identify a tree or a person is by the kind of fruit that is produced.

12:33 “A tree is identified by its fruit. Make a tree good, and its fruit will be good. Make a tree bad, and its fruit will be bad.

Good works come as a result of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. It is a natural result of a person who has experienced the new birth.

Salvation will never and never will be by works. It has always been and always will be by faith.

[Woody]

The fruit determines the tree, friends (Matthew 7:18; 12:33). Dietrich Bonhoeffer introduced us to "cheap grace" over 50 years ago. But today's popular evangelicalism, awash with sloppy agape and warm fuzzies, has carried the notion of “cheap grace” to the limits of triviality.

Grace is exalted-conduct diminished, forgiveness flourishes-obedience ignored. This idea comes out clear when one raises the question of the obedience of the Christian. “It is all of grace!” is touted as an answer of all answers. It is designed to diffuse & excuse failures and sin. I have never seen any good fruit coming from this doctrine, especially in our counseling ministry.

Cheap grace has been no less disastrous to our own spiritual lives. Instead of opening up the way to Christ it has closed it. Instead of calling us to follow Christ , it has hardened us in our disobedience. When people follow cheap grace to its logical outcome, this results in the teaching of such theological absurdities as anti-nomianism, and OSAS.

rejoice always,

oG

If it is so prevalent ... why have I not heard of it. Cheap Grace? Nothing cheap about the blood of Christ.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: olger

The fruit determines the tree, friends (Matthew 7:18; 12:33).

Fruit reveals it does not determine. An apple tree does not become an apple tree because apples appear. It reveals what kind of tree it is by the fruit it produces.

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep, but are really wolves that will tear you apart. 16You can detect them by the way they act, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit. You don’t pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles. 17A healthy tree produces good fruit, and an unhealthy tree produces bad fruit. 18A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20Yes, the way to identify a tree or a person is by the kind of fruit that is produced.

33“A tree is identified by its fruit. Make a tree good, and its fruit will be good. Make a tree bad, and its fruit will be bad.

Good works come as a result of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. It is a natural result of a person who has experienced the new birth.

Salvation never has never will be by works. It has always been and always will be by faith.

Thanks Laz. Great Post.

[lazarus]

Sometimes the good news of the Gospel is just too good!

Brennan Manning said, “Something is radically wrong. The bending of the mind by the

powers of this world has twisted the gospel of Grace into religious bondage and distorted

the image of God into an eternal, small minded bookkeeper. The Christian community

resembles a Wall Street exchange of works wherein the elite are honored and the

ordinary ignored. Love is stifled, freedom shackled, and self righteousness fastened. The

institutional church has become a wounder of the healers rather than a healer of the

wounded.”

•Put it bluntly, the church today accepts grace in theory buy denies it in

practice – therefore the gospel of grace is neither proclaimed, understood, nor lived

[phkrause]

Very interesting Lazarus, but unfortunately very true and sad.

pk

[Gail]

Robert said:

Quote:

Just remember that there's a difference in "back sliding"(becoming an immature or carnal christian) and premeditated apostasy. In the latter there's no coming back. You are once lost forever lost. Read Hebrews 6:4

Premeditated apostasy? How about David's sin? That was premeditated apostasy, wasn't it?

[Gail]

The fruit determines the tree, friends (Matthew 7:18; 12:33). Dietrich Bonhoeffer introduced us to "cheap grace" over 50 years ago. But today's popular evangelicalism, awash with sloppy agape and warm fuzzies, has carried the notion of “cheap grace” to the limits of triviality.

Grace is exalted-conduct diminished, forgiveness flourishes-obedience ignored. This idea comes out clear when one raises the question of the obedience of the Christian. “It is all of grace!” is touted as an answer of all answers. It is designed to diffuse & excuse failures and sin. I have never seen any good fruit coming from this doctrine, especially in our counseling ministry.

Cheap grace has been no less disastrous to our own spiritual lives. Instead of opening up the way to Christ it has closed it. Instead of calling us to follow Christ , it has hardened us in our disobedience. When people follow cheap grace to its logical outcome, this results in the teaching of such theological absurdities as anti-nomianism, and OSAS.

Interesting comments! I've always thought that this viewpoint (that of the kind of grace teaching you are highlighting) dimished God's power in our lives. If we don't expect big things, we probably won't see God doing big things for us.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: olger

I rather like this quote by a cousin of mine

“To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

See if you can guess the author.

og

We are saved by works. Just not our works.

"...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. "Philippians 2:13 NKJV

Regards!

Then God is working through you perfectly? You are fully reflecting Christ's self-emptying love, no?

[Robert]

Robert said:

Quote:

Just remember that there's a difference in "back sliding"(becoming an immature or carnal christian) and premeditated apostasy. In the latter there's no coming back. You are once lost forever lost. Read Hebrews 6:4

Premeditated apostasy? How about David's sin? That was premeditated apostasy, wasn't it?

No, not at all.

When David saw Bathsheba bathing his nature got the best of him. He failed to surrender his nature to God's control and therefore he started a chain of events that included adultery & murder, but this is in no way apostasy.

The unpardonable sin, the rejection of the Spirit, is premeditated apostasy. This David did not do. How do I know this?

Ps 51:11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Note David still had the Holy Spirit even though he wasn't yielding to Him in some areas.

Now what does it say about those who have fully hardened their hearts?

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those...who have shared in the Holy Spirit, ....if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance.

David couldn't repent without the Holy Spirit convicting him to do so....

[Gail]

What I mean is, What good is God's grace if He can't heal me of alcoholism or depression or addiction or just plain bitterness and anger? (or whatever, you fill in the blank)

I think that God's grace does that in people. It changes them and changes them in big ways that are supernatural.

[Robert]

What I mean is, What good is God's grace if He can't heal me of alcoholism or depression or addiction or just plain bitterness and anger? (or whatever, you fill in the blank)

I know this wasn't to me, but...

Yes, God's grace can change folks, but...some "thirty fold, some sixty and some one hundred fold". What I mean to say is that everyone doesn't experience the same amount of maturity through faith.

Now look at 2 Cor 13:18 -- And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us [as we learn to "walk in the Spirit"], we become more and more like him and reflect his glory [His love] even more.

But all along the way we must admit, as did Paul, that we are present tense falling short of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ. See Romans 3:21

I've had a besetting sin forever....I seem not to shake it and when I do I seem to fall back into it. And "no" it's not something I need to be in jail for, but nevertheless it's a besetting sin. Why the repeat failure? I don't know..., but it isn't God's fault. Nevertheless I have the assurance of salvation!

[Gail]

Yes, I agree with that, Robert, too!

I often feel that we are harder on folks than God is. I prefer to speak of hope and power and grace and wait and see what the Lord will do! We ALL have something we can praise Him for God knows the heart and He won't leave us where we are.

I think it's easier to get down on people when we don't know them very well. But the Lord knows the HEART. I love that! How often do we feel misunderstood in this world.

[Gail]

Work in progress, that's what we are. Jesus fills in the lack and brings us the way He knows best.

He sees your potential! How awesome is that?

[Dr. Rich]

Rev, 3:11 shows us that one is not saved until they are sealed by God, that is actually being "born again of the Holy Spirit". You must become righteous before this will happen. As of now, no one that I know has actually and truthfully been born again. Sanctification is a process--and not the same as justification.

Paul's writings and the unknown writer of Hebrews makes all of this very confusing. Those who become righteous are the ones found in Revelation 12:17--they are the ones that keep the ten commandments and believe in the testimony of Jesus given to us by ONLY His eyewitnesses as found in John 14:26. The true test are the words of Jesus. You can test anyone--including those who called themselves apostels (Paul and James) in the bible against this one test and you will find that Paul and James are actually false apostles. (Rev. 2:2)

[Robert]

Rev, 3:11 shows us that one is not saved until they are sealed by God, that is actually being "born again of the Holy Spirit". You must become righteous before this will happen. As of now, no one that I know has actually and truthfully been born again.

We are righteous by faith right now! If we died this minute we have heaven at the 2nd coming. We are fully qualified now and in the judgment "in Christ". Until "glorification" we will not be actually righteous. Until then we are accepted "in Christ". No worries...mate!

[Tallmark]

Sanctification is a process--and not the same as justification.

We are instantly sanctified as soon as we accept Christ. It's not a process. "So that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me." Acts 26:18

[olger]

THANKS

what I meant to say is "The root determnines the fruit" over and

out

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Sanctification is a process--and not the same as justification.

We are instantly sanctified as soon as we accept Christ. It's not a process. "So that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me." Acts 26:18

That would be correct. We are sanctified now.

We are set apart to be used by God.

Lev. 8:30 "And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which [was] upon the altar, and sprinkled [it] upon Aaron, [and] upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, [and] his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. "

Num. 7:1 "And it came to pass on the day that Moses had fully set up the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and sanctified it, and all the instruments thereof, both the altar and all the vessels thereof, and had anointed them, and sanctified them."

Num. 8:17 " For all the firstborn of the children of Israel [are] mine, [both] man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself. "

1 Sam. 7:1 "And the men of Kirjathjearim came, and fetched up the ark of the LORD, and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill, and sanctified Eleazar his son to keep the ark of the LORD."

1 Sam. 16:5 "And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice."

2 Chron 29:15 "And they gathered their brethren, and sanctified themselves, and came, according to the commandment of the king, by the words of the LORD, to cleanse the house of the LORD."

Neh. 3:1 "Then Eliashib the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests, and they builded the sheep gate; they sanctified it, and set up the doors of it; even unto the tower of Meah they sanctified it, unto the tower of Hananeel. "

Job 1:4 -5 "And his sons went and feasted [in their] houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them."

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

John 17:19 " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

John 10:36 "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? "

Acts 26:18 " To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. "

1 Cor. 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Heb. 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"

Heb. 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

Heb. 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father"

"Christ has said, "I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified." [John 17:19.] He wanted his disciples to be sanctified, and he made himself their example, that they might follow him." CE 175

"And the world took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. Sinful men, repentant, pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified, were brought into partnership with God through His Son." AA 578

[Planey]

No worries...mate!

I didn't know you were an Aussie, Rob!

Graeme

[LifeHiscost]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer introduced us to "cheap grace"

Cheap grace... cheap grace...results in the teaching of... theological absurdities....

oG

I can understand your frustration, oG. Frustration is always the end result of teaching false doctrine. There is no such thing as cheap grace. The phrase "cheap grace" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

Grace cost the life of the Lord of the universe. Grace reveals the tawdry remains of the cross of Christ, stained with the blood that was shed for the perverted of the universe, those who have no hope save in grace revealed by that despicable cross. Grace is what keeps that view alive so we will never forget how much grace truly continually costs.

Perhaps grace can be considered cheap by some who do not see Jesus as their best Friend, some who do not recognize that every time they fall short, Jesus feels the pain that happens in the lives of themselves as well as others who happen to fall prey to those shortcomings.

For those who have found grace in the eyes of the Lord, far from it being cheap grace, it is recognized as truly amazing grace.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40 KJV

"

If they shall fall away,...they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:6 KJV

"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

Zechariah 13:6 KJV

Blessings!

[Planey]

This is very true LHC.

But as far as you and I are concerned Grace is neither cheap nor expensive - it is FREE!!!!!

The wonderful thing is that Grace is offered freely to us as Christ's enemies - we have done nothing to deserve it. All we can do is accept it.

Surely that means that Grace is cheap.

Graeme

PS

If somebody gives you a present of a brand new Lamborghini Gallardo then that is a cheap car - for you. However your friend had to pay the full price for it.