Woody Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks CoA. For the sake of clarity ... I will repost what I said ... Quote: Why are we always saved? It is always because he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us. It is WE who turn our back on the saved status that Jesus has for us. And when we turn away from Him ... He cries over what we have done. Didn't know it would be so controversial. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Not Cloned Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 CoAspen, if I came across in an uncaring way I apologise. It was not my intention. This is just one of the most emotionally driven topics anywhere. I was only expressing true experiences of people who have been given the oposite of hope. Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." It is unfortunate that some have been enlightened, and tasted, and been partakers of the Holy Ghost, and tasted the word of God and the world to come, only to be told that because their sanctification is not happening as fast as others think that it should, that all their experiences are false. It is a fact. This does happen. I again appologise for my ignorance and pray for a more caring heart. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
LifeHiscost Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Makes sence Pam. Your comment brought this example to my thinking. The theological discussion may be important but the end result of a once saved always saved philosophy is what concerns me most. We have a want-to-be Christians world that do not have an idea of how to get security in Christ because they have been taught to doubt a true conversion experience. I would also like to suggest, NC, (which is also an acronym for New Covenant) that the scripture you seem to see as a real downer for those who have seriously slipped and fallen after an original true experience with God, could perhaps be understood with more hope when seen from a more recent translation. "For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace." Heb 6:4-6 AMP Notice the underlined in the Scriptures above. I've underlined to draw attention to a few facts in which God alone, and perhaps you, can draw correct conclusions, since the Lord looks on the heart and man looks on the outward appearance. Do you feel there is anyone who is once for all enlightened? And what about because, while, as long as? Each of those reveal a condition somewhere in the middle of the process of being saved, not a signpost at the end of Jesus' effort to draw you to the Father before it is entirely too late. If you find it difficult to repent after having fallen more times than you can count, remember that repentance is a gift of God and He is as willing to give it to you, or whoever, as to anyone willing to ask for it. And a couple of promises that are as unequivocal as the integrity of your Father in heaven. ""He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. " Acts 5:31 NASB "Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. "Malachi 3:7 KJV "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. "Matthew 18:21-23 KJV If God asks us to give our brother that much consideration, would He not have the same principle in His heart for any of His children? Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 However your friend had to pay the full price for it. And so He did, and not for me alone. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Praise God! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert You are not dead to sin....If you were you would be sinless. Being dead to sin is a mindset - it's an attitude as in "reckon"...or "consider yourself dead to sin", etc. I'm sorry you can't understand such things. Quote
Robert Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert And you are going to die forever (the 2nd death) unless you accept your position "in Christ". In Him you obeyed...in Him you died and in Him you have a new glorified life in the heavenly places right this minute. That life stands perfect before God's law. Reject this truth and you can kiss it all goodbye. Keep on this works trip and you'll miss out. Rob [color:blue] Christ is my substitute. He lived' date=' died, resurrected for me. His righteousness stands for mine. [/quote'] No, that's an unethical gospel. You died in Christ. The law demanded your death. Read Paul. It is because you have accepted "another gospel" is the reason you are hung up on works. Quote
Not Cloned Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 LifeHiscost Thank you for making this passage a passage of hope as Paul had designed it to be. Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, in particular the fantastic reality of God’s unending willingness to provide repentance and forgive for His people. WOW!! One might find another word that could be translated differently and add hope. In the beginning of Hebrews 6:4 it says “For it is impossible”. The word “impossible” seems to bring about a sense hopelessness to the entire passage which I am not sure that Paul was intending. The word Impossible actually comes from the concept of powerlessness. It seems that more correctly understood Paul wanted Christians to understand that of their own works one would be powerless to reconnect to the power source our High Priest Jesus Christ (vs.20). In 6:1 Paul mentions this specifically: “not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God…” (The word “and” can be translated as “but” and may be helpfull.) If they “shall fall away” they can find through faith in God power and possibility and repentance. It would seem important to notice that in this passage Paul may have been giving a warning of reality. If his Christian friends who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost were to “fall away” if they relied upon “the foundation of repentance from dead works” to get back up they would be powerless and with out Christ would have the same fate of the “thorns and briers” Paul used as an illustration in vrs. 7and 8. Here he shows where they did not receive the rain from heaven and did not receive the blessing from God but instead were “rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.” THere is no power without Christ. Therefore, I believe Paul meant this passage as a fantastic promise of repentance and forgiveness to struggling Christians who can choose, when they fall, not to rely on self and die but to choose to rely upon Christ and live. Amen! Quote Put the horse before the cart!
BobRyan Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Nothing changes, the beautiful statements of Christ, example John 3:16, are tossed aside so that people can pontificate on their version of of being saved! Why?? I am always puzzled as to why this happens and no one will answer! When RW opened this topic, explaining what he meant, off persons went to the opposite extreme? Astounding! What can be so wonderful about that? I have never seen a posting by RW or anyone else saying that a person can accept salvation and then go out to live a life degradation, yet that is what these posting always concentrate on! Unbelievable! A beautiful act of God ignored so the we can look into the depths of Hell. There are "two flavors" of the false doctrine of OSAS as I pointed out here - http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post231251 One denies the Bible doctrine on "perseverance of the saints" (as that post pointed out) and as you refer to above -- SO THAT they can have BOTH OSAS AND "assurance". The other flavor of that false OSAS doctrine - accepts Perseverance of the Saints (as the link shows) but does so at the "risk" of assurance since in that model "assurance is retro deleted" as soon as it is found that "ten years from today you fail to persevere". (Then of course as Redwood points out -- there is the "no flavor" of OSAS where you use the term to mean "I am saved and then not actually lost again until I unwittingly make a choice to be lost" -- as if this is some kind of "OSAS" and NOT the very thing that the OSAS camp is so totally focused on denying) Details. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Quote: Why are we always saved? It is always because he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us. It is WE who turn our back on the saved status that Jesus has for us. And when we turn away from Him ... He cries over what we have done. The logic in that statement is as "illusive" as saying "I believe in eternal hell because as long as you are burning you are burning -- then the fire ends". It does not even qualify as a "play on words" it is just self-conflicted. How short-term that strategy would be if we attempted it with folks that actually DO belive in OSAS. They would have shredded it before it ever got off the ground. But given that there really "IS" such a doctrine as OSAS that is "really" being promoted by Christians -- onward and upward, and given that the most common flaw in liberal Adventism is to self-conflictedly embrace calvinism an a wannabe style while still having to claim to reject Calvinism... onward and upward. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
delta Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 (Not an open ended question) This is a YES or NO question. Please answer it honestly and wholeheartedly--if you want Since you believe that our salvation is 100% guaranteed by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus....Does a Christian still be able to choose not to receive the salvation? YES or NO? Quote
Beryl Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Yes! God never takes from us the power of choice. Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9.
Not Cloned Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 But if one believes in OSAS you must give up you freedom of choice because it is imposible to be lost. So after you are saved you have to go God's way or better stated you cannot choose to go against GOd. Is this a correct understanding? Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Members phkrause Posted March 31, 2009 Members Posted March 31, 2009 No this is not correct. God never takes the freedom of choice from us. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Not Cloned Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 If He does not take the freedom of choice away from us, which I believe, then a OSAS belief would have difficulty with this reality. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Moderators Gerr Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Quote: You are not dead to sin....If you were you would be sinless. Being dead to sin is a mindset - it's an attitude as in "reckon"...or "consider yourself dead to sin", etc. I'm sorry you can't understand such things. That's where you err. Being dead to sin does NOT mean being sinless. It means that your conscious mind says "NO" when it is prompted by sin. A dead person cannot do what someone tells them to do. The true believer is dead to sin but ALIVE to righteousness, that's why it can say "yes" to right doing! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks CoA. For the sake of clarity ... I will repost what I said ... Quote: Why are we always saved? It is always because he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us. It is WE who turn our back on the saved status that Jesus has for us. And when we turn away from Him ... He cries over what we have done. Didn't know it would be so controversial. Sorry, but you did not quote your whole statement that might have left some room for misunderstanding. Here are your EXACT words, post #229727 "Jesus saved us once and for all. He doesn't have to die again. It is a done deal. We are "always" saved....if we accept that saved status. Why are we always saved? It is always because he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us. It is WE who turn our back on the saved status that Jesus has for us. And when we turn away from Him ... He cries over what we have done." Your statement leaves one, at least me, dangling whether we are lost if turn our backs on Him. If "He never takes that saved status from us," doesn't that mean that we are still saved even though we have turned our backs on Him? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Quote: Christ is my substitute. He lived, died, resurrected for me. His righteousness stands for mine. No, that's an unethical gospel. You died in Christ. The law demanded your death. Read Paul. It is because you have accepted "another gospel" is the reason you are hung up on works. Unethical gospel that Christ not only pulls me out of a cesspool but washes me also? INCREDIBLE!!! Which is better news? Christ pulls you out of a cesspool but leaves filthy and stinky, or that not only does He pull you out of a cesspool but He bathes and washes you, perfumes you, and gives you a new suit? Quote
delta Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks Garry for your concern about Redwood's double-faced statements: Statement #1: "he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us." Statement #2: "It is WE who turn our back on the saved status that Jesus has for us. And when we turn away from Him ... He cries over what we have done." Nothing wrong with crying, of course! Well, in this case Jesus [only] cries 'eh? But the Jesus of Redwood still saves them who turn back? What kind of Jesus is that? Just crying. But still saved no matter what? Unfortunately, this double standard is a real attack by falsyfing the granted status of the Blessed Assurance of our real Jesus. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks CoA. For the sake of clarity ... I will repost what I said ... Quote: Why are we always saved? It is always because he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us. It is WE who turn our back on the saved status that Jesus has for us. And when we turn away from Him ... He cries over what we have done. Didn't know it would be so controversial. A person doesn't have to consciously reject Christ in order to have rejected Christ. A person may reject Christ and be self-deceived into thinking they are in a saved condition. The Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy both show that there will be many people lost who thought they were saved. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 post #231228 Refreshment to my soul. Praise God! "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things." Phil 4:8 NASB "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"Psalm 133:1 KJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Does a Christian still be able to choose not to receive the salvation? YES or NO? Yes and no. Yes if they have reached accountability, but it's more like choosing to reject salvation. Take infants who die shortly after birth, they didn't accept salvation yet I believe they all will be in heaven. EGW says the same, though she's not sure "all" will be there.... Quote
Robert Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Unethical gospel that Christ not only pulls me out of a cesspool but washes me also? INCREDIBLE!!! That's not the gospel...that's the fruits of the gospel. Please stay with the subject. Quote
Robert Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 A person may reject Christ and be self-deceived into thinking they are in a saved condition. Yes...and it is self-righteousness that is the only reason folks will be self-deceived. Everyone who is lost will be due to the sin of self-righteousness. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 A person may reject Christ and be self-deceived into thinking they are in a saved condition. Yes...and it is self-righteousness that is the only reason folks will be self-deceived. Everyone who is lost will be due to the sin of self-righteousness. And where is that text found? Here is one written by PAUL: "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,4 drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ga 5:16-21). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 31, 2009 Moderators Posted March 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Unethical gospel that Christ not only pulls me out of a cesspool but washes me also? INCREDIBLE!!! That's not the gospel...that's the fruits of the gospel. Please stay with the subject. That's the FULL gospel!!! Quote
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