We are onced-saved, always saved!!!

[Woody]

Thanks for highlighting my statements. I think all that I have said is very accurate. I stand behind each statement. You asked the meaning of 'never'. I suggest you read the entire post and you will see. Never means never.

[phkrause]

I believe Redwood that to Jesus sin is sin, there is not one sin greater than the next. So when he told her to go and sin no more, I don't believe he was limiting it to just prostitution. Now having said that, that doesn't mean that she or we for that matter won't continue to be sinners. That's why we come to Jesus and repent. Isn't that what Jesus taught the the Israelites with the sanctuary system. Than the people had to sacrifice but after Jesus came and died for us, we come to him in pray directly instead of bringing an animal.

pk

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You know it's downright unconscionable to misquote scripture by making it state what it does not. Jesus is dealing specific sins. He is not telling these individuals to be perfect.

That's not a misquote!!!

Sooooooo' date=' was Jesus telling the adulterous woman to stop ONLY the sin of adultery but can go on with practicing other sins? If this woman could, by the grace of God, stop committing one specific sin - adultery, why not gossip? Why not stealing? Why not ______ whatever?[/quote']

Does God come to you and say, "Gerry, stop loving yourself"? No, but the law does for it says, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." There's only one command there...only one. As Shane brought out Jesus is talking to sinners who are already quit in love with themselves. He's commanding those who think that they are righteous to take that un-turn love (self-love) and instead redirect to your neighbors.

You see Jesus starts with the sin that is dominating believers the most. Otherwise if you are going to legalistic assume that Jesus meant to cease from all sin I suggest you stop being so self-centered and instead of building your own wealth do what Christ did! He had that love which seeketh not her own, but another's wealth. He lived a life of selfishness. Are you? No! Therefore when you insist that others cease from all sin I insist that you cease your selfishness.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

When Jesus stated this to the woman caught in adultery he had her life of prostitution in mind. Otherwise John is contradicting Christ for he said' date=' "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

[/quote']

No one can claim to be without sin because all have sinnED.

More self-righteous hypocrisy! Read Romans 3:23 with an honest eye:

"There is no difference for all have sinned (past tense) AND fall short (present continuous tense) of the glory of God (which is God's agape love)."

We are sinners, even though we grow, from our past and right now!

Now, if you would like to deny this (and I bet you would) then what you are telling me is that you are measuring up to God's self-emptying love - a love that does nothing with "self" in mind. Please don't say you are because 1 John 1:8 will say you are highly deceived.

Rob

[delta]

Never?

In case any Christians were doing massacre before committed suicide....You still said that the suicided killers were saved by the grace of God, because “he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us."?

Or...among the 12 of His disciples, one betrayed Him then committed suicide. According to your 'never means never' philosophy, Judas still saved because “ he never ... NEVER takes that saved status away from us."?

There is no difference, isn't it? And there's no need of repentance, then.

NEVER being unsaved. Once saved always saved?

The fact that Jesus is the only one that knows who's saved does not automatically eliminating His desire for His people's to learn the Divine character and the Present Truth.

[Robert]

-BC- GC11

-TI- The Great Controversy

-CN- 27

-CT- Modern Revivals

-PR- 02

-PG- 471

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6. It was when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord, and heard the cherubim crying, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” that he cried out, “Woe is me! for I am undone.” Isaiah 6:3, 5. Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as “less than the least of all saints.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, margin; Ephesians 3:8. It was the beloved John, who leaned on Jesus’ breast and beheld His glory, that fell as one dead before the feet of the angel. Revelation 1:17.

There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour.

[Robert]

Never? NEVER being unsaved. Once saved always saved?

No, I NEVER said once saved always saved. I said once saved always saved as long as you keep your faith in Christ's righteousness. The only reason men are lost is due to pride and self-righteousness. The Jews were first class law keepers. They would make SDA look like school kids.

Why were they lost? They rejected their need of Christ's righteousness and instead were quit proud of their own righteousness. So...the only reason one will be lost is because of the sin of unbelief, which is the sin of legalism....

[John317]

...when he told her to go and sin no more, I don't believe he was limiting it to just prostitution.

It literally says, "no more go on sinning." It means, "Stop practicing sin."

hamartane

Verb--Imperative, Present, active, third singular

The language does not mean, "Never commit sin."

[delta]

Dear Robert,

Please don't judge anyone by making immediate conclusion that the weakest of the weak Christians which believe in God's power shall give them the victory over sin...but you judge them by your mindsetting conclusion that they have a tendency of “boastful claim to freedom from sin “, “Selfish Christians” or “More self-righteous hypocrisy”.

In fact, please start screaming as loud as possible that “I believe that Jesus can heal all diseases, Jesus can solve our financial problems, families' dilemmas, and He can move or remove any mountains. He is the powerful Creator.....but I don't believe that the same Jesus has the power to give His people victory over sins.

[True-believer]

but I don't believe that the same Jesus has the power to give His people victory over sins.

Hi Delta,

I'm very surprize at you using this phase, what do you mean?

The Bible very clearly says that we have been given the victory over sins, I don't know what book your reading, but it can't be a good one.

The Bible says that it is through the Blood of Jesus that we can obtain forgiveness of sins and have the victory... It is through His shed Blood upon the Cross at Calvery that was able to SET US FREE!!!

It is only at the Cross that the veil of the curtain tore in two from top to bottom to give us complete access to God through Jesus Christ forever.

Phil. 4:13...

We can do ALL things through Jesus Christ who strengtherns us.

[Woody]

I believe Redwood that to Jesus sin is sin, there is not one sin greater than the next. So when he told her to go and sin no more, I don't believe he was limiting it to just prostitution. Now having said that, that doesn't mean that she or we for that matter won't continue to be sinners. That's why we come to Jesus and repent. Isn't that what Jesus taught the the Israelites with the sanctuary system. Than the people had to sacrifice but after Jesus came and died for us, we come to him in pray directly instead of bringing an animal.

pk

I certainly agree that sin is sin. So the go and sin no more ... mean all sins. IOWs God and not sin. But each time you do ... come to me for repentance.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: delta

Never? NEVER being unsaved. Once saved always saved?

No, I NEVER said once saved always saved. I said once saved always saved as long as you keep your faith in Christ's righteousness. The only reason men are lost is due to pride and self-righteousness. The Jews were first class law keepers. They would make SDA look like school kids.

Why were they lost? They rejected their need of Christ's righteousness and instead were quit proud of their own righteousness. So...the only reason one will be lost is because of the sin of unbelief, which is the sin of legalism....

Exactly ...

Good Job Rob.

[delta]

Quote:

Hi Delta,

I'm very surprize at you using this phase, what do you mean?

Ask Robert, not me.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: delta

but I don't believe that the same Jesus has the power to give His people victory over sins.

Hi Delta,

I'm very surprize at you using this phase, what do you mean?

The Bible very clearly says that we have been given the victory over sins, I don't know what book your reading, but it can't be a good one.

The Bible says that it is through the Blood of Jesus that we can obtain forgiveness of sins and have the victory... It is through His shed Blood upon the Cross at Calvery that was able to SET US FREE!!!

It is only at the Cross that the veil of the curtain tore in two from top to bottom to give us complete access to God through Jesus Christ forever.

Phil. 4:13...

We can do ALL things through Jesus Christ who strengtherns us.

[Gerr]

I'm still wondering what part of - "Go and sin no more," that you don't understand. It's not Greek or Chinese. It's plain English!

[True-believer]

I'm still wondering what part of - "Go and sin no more," that you don't understand. It's not Greek or Chinese. It's plain English!

Actually, it was written in greek to start with... English is just the translation...

[Woody]

No wonder Gerry is having a hard time understanding it.

[Gerr]

-BC- GC11

-TI- The Great Controversy

-CN- 27

-CT- Modern Revivals

-PR- 02

-PG- 471

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6. It was when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord, and heard the cherubim crying, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” that he cried out, “Woe is me! for I am undone.” Isaiah 6:3, 5. Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as “less than the least of all saints.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, margin; Ephesians 3:8. It was the beloved John, who leaned on Jesus’ breast and beheld His glory, that fell as one dead before the feet of the angel. Revelation 1:17.

There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour.

Cite ONE statement from ANYONE who has boastfully claimed they are free from ALL sin!!! Just ONE?

But the Apostle John said: "Whoever makes a PRACTICE of sinning is OF THE DEVIL," 1 Jn 3:8. "NO ONE born of God makes a PRACTICE of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he is born of God," 3:9.

You have repeatedly questioned my intelligence and ridiculed my comprehension. Now let me ask you, what part of "whoever", or "makes a practice of sinning is of the devil," is not plain enough English for you not to understand?

[John317]

But the Apostle John said: "Whoever makes a PRACTICE of sinning is OF THE DEVIL," 1 Jn 3:8. "NO ONE born of God makes a PRACTICE of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he is born of God," 3:9.

You have repeatedly questioned my intelligence and ridiculed my comprehension. Now let me ask you, what part of "whoever", or "makes a practice of sinning is of the devil," is not plain enough English for you not to understand?

The answer is that, just as the Scriptures say, those who are "of the devil" and are not "born of God" will not understand what the Scriptures are saying because people need the Holy Spirit to understand what the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets and apostles to write. 1 Cor. 2: 13, 14. "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I'm still wondering what part of - "Go and sin no more," that you don't understand. It's not Greek or Chinese. It's plain English!

Actually, it was written in greek to start with... English is just the translation...

And what part of the English translation - "Go and sin no more," that is difficult to understand? That goes for you too, Redwood.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

Hi Delta' date='

I'm very surprize at you using this phase, what do you mean?

The Bible very clearly says that we have been given the victory over sins, I don't know what book your reading, but it can't be a good one.

The Bible says that it is through the Blood of Jesus that we can obtain forgiveness of sins and have the victory... It is through His shed Blood upon the Cross at Calvery that was able to SET US FREE!!!

It is only at the Cross that the veil of the curtain tore in two from top to bottom to give us complete access to God through Jesus Christ forever.

Phil. 4:13...

We can do ALL things through Jesus Christ who strengtherns us.

Yes. Good Point True-Believer. I agree with what you have said.

Ellen White does also ...

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." TDG 318

"The strongest temptation is no excuse for sin. No matter how severe the pressure brought to bear upon you, sin is your own act."

"In view of the dangers of this time, shall not we, as God's commandment-keeping people, put away from among us all sin, all iniquity, all perverseness?" AH 331

"There is no excuse for sin or for indolence." FW 49

" It is not in the power of all the host of Satan to force the tempted to transgress. There is no excuse for sin." Mar 82

"When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy. Had man, when tested and tried, followed the example of Christ, he would have given his children and his children's children an example of steadfast purity and righteousness, and the race would not have deteriorated, but improved. . . . " TDG 318

"There is no excuse for sin. It will be the final condemnation of Lucifer and his angels that when God shall ask, "Why have ye done this?" they will be able to assign no reason. And when at the last great day sinners are confronted with their sins, and are asked, "Why did you transgress?" every mouth will be stopped. The sinful will stand speechless before God. " RH, September 24, 1901 par. 3

"Men of high or low degree have no excuse for sin. The light given of Heaven, the power from Jesus Christ, can be obtained by all who ask for it in faith. Under every provocation there is a present help that will never fail. We are to learn to take God at his word, walking by simple faith, continually feeling our own weakness, and trusting in the Mighty One of Israel. " ST, October 7, 1880 par. 12

"There is no excuse for sin, no excuse for the least degree of unfaithfulness." 20MR 385

"When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us." --DA, p 668

"So long as we are united to Him by faith, sin has no more dominion over us. God reaches for the hand of faith in us to attain to perfection of character." The Desire of Ages, 123

[/quote']

We should NOT limit God ...

You quote all these but do you believe any of them??? Are you not still teaching that believers continue to willfully sin until they die and will be saved IN their sins regardless?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

No one can claim to be without sin because all have sinnED. [/quote']

More self-righteous hypocrisy! Read Romans 3:23 with an honest eye:

All your name-calling, insults, and condescending attitude, is to show me the practical results of your doctrine and its source!!!

Quote:

"There is no difference for all have sinned (past tense) AND fall short (present continuous tense) of the glory of God (which is God's agape love).

Sooooooooo, because we cannot love exactly as God loves, it's no use even trying? Is there any angel of heaven that can measure up to God's love? Again the Apostle John said, "Whoever does not love abides in death." 1 Jn 3:14 ESV. Per your theology, since we can't measure up to God's love, we are not really loving at all, therefore, we must be ALL abiding in death!!!!!!

Quote:

We are sinners, even though we grow, from our past and right now!

There goes that lip service to growth again! What is growth? Becoming more like Christ? Or less? More loving or less? Stopping porno? Or just watching less? Stopping cheating or just cheating less?

Quote:

Now, if you would like to deny this (and I bet you would) then what you are telling me is that you are measuring up to God's self-emptying love - a love that does nothing with "self" in mind. Please don't say you are because 1 John 1:8 will say you are highly deceived.

Rob

Even though you have repeatedly insulted my intelligence, even your question is a no brainer. NO ONE can/will ever measure up to God's love from here to eternity! But the good news about grace is that when we love, grace says, "it's enough! Love fulfills the law!"

[Woody]

Gerry. We will never be good enough to enter Heaven. In Heaven there can no longer be forgiveness of sins. Right now you have to repent. In heaven you will not have that option. Thus ... you will have to be changed at the second coming as indicated below. Give this some serious consideration.

Quote:

1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

1 Corin. 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

"Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

"Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

"If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

[Taylor]

Guys, I really do think there is a lot of missunderstanding going on. I don't think that anyone here is trying to say that there is NO use in trying to keep the law...although by all the talking about how we can't do it at all it makes it seem as if we shouldn't even try. But I really don't think that is what Robert or Redwood is trying to say. But neither is it understood what Gerry is saying when he says, "NO ONE can/will ever measure up to God's love from here to eternity! But the good news about grace is that when we love, grace says, "it's enough! Love fulfills the law!" I think is saying that love fulfills the law BUT that we must keep letting God change our lives.

So here is what I think both sides are saying:

1. We will never deserve salvation no matter how perfect we are because we are saved only through grace.

2. That we should allow God to transform us as much as he possibly can before the second coming because out of love we want to live the way he wants us to live.

3. When Jesus comes we will be "safe to save" not becuase we are "good enough" but because Jesus is Lord of our life and all we want, with all our hearts is to continue to reflect him as much as we possibly can even though we are imperfect humans. He has become Lord of our lives and we have allowed him to change us here and we will continue to grow in grace, and in knowlege. We won't be sinning in heaven, true, but that is because we have already been sold out to Jesus in heaven.

Now if either side says that

1. We can't obtain victory nor should we try and we can just keep on sinning because we like it...that isn't biblical. We must have a heart so sold out to Jesus that we will want to and actively seek his power to overcome in our lives, NOT as a means of salvation BUT because we love Jesus more than anything else and we want to become more like him every day.

2. We must keep striving for perfection becuase that is what saves us, that is also not biblical, we are saved by grace alone.

Just my 2 cents.

[Woody]

Very Good Taylor. Thanks.

I think what some here fail to see is that the purpose of good works is to Glorify Christ and not to earn salvation. We are not saved by Grace plus works and this is what they seem to be promoting.

Thus ... no matter how small our works are ... they are to Glorify Him and not to earn merit favor.

And it should be noted that each and every Christian who has EVER been a Christian ... has brought some works to the table no matter how small.