We are onced-saved, always saved!!!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's not the gospel...that's the fruits of the gospel. Please stay with the subject.

That's the FULL gospel!!!

No, that's a lie! The gospel is, and always has been, the truth about the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, period.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes...and it is self-righteousness that is the only reason folks will be self-deceived. Everyone who is lost will be due to the sin of self-righteousness.

And where is that text found?

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day' date=' Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [works of iniquity or works done in order to merit salvation. These works are "bent to self" meaning they are done by the flesh in order to gain heaven. This is legalism and self-righteousness']. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock [on Christ the solid rock I stand]: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock [the righteousness of Christ]. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand [works]: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin [law keepers], we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Matt 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces [i.e., you place them "under law"]. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

[melvin mccarty]

Yes the ones who do not show love and compassion but argue about being saved may be surprised. They may have faith to remove mountains but have not love and be lost. The world will know we are Chritians only if we demonstrate love. The two great commandments sum up the whole duty of humans. The "inasmuch's" are the basis for salvation. Whether we like it or not!....mel

[LifeHiscost]

No, that's a lie! The gospel is, and always has been, the truth about the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, period.

I wonder why the apostles wrote so much more to identify the practical application of the gospel in the here and now. Seems to me there had to be some reason for carrying around the whole bible rather than accepting so much useless dead weight.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: John317

A person may reject Christ and be self-deceived into thinking they are in a saved condition.

Yes...and it is self-righteousness that is the only reason folks will be self-deceived. Everyone who is lost will be due to the sin of self-righteousness.

"And [Jesus] said to them, O foolish ones [sluggish in mind, dull of perception] and slow of heart to believe (adhere to and trust in and rely on) everything that the prophets have spoken!"Luke 24:25 AMP

"Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth."John 12:35 KJV

" For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light"

Ephesians 5:8 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Take infants who die shortly after birth, they didn't accept salvation yet I believe they all will be in heaven. EGW says the same, though she's not sure "all" will be there....

[Gerr]

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But the Jesus of Redwood still saves them who turn back? What kind of Jesus is that?

We better hope so! We all have turned away from Christ at one time or another...what is sin...then we turn back. I reckon the Prodigal Son was lost after all...he turned back and his father accepted him back! Guess we all have that parable wrong!!

Jesus will NEVER turn away ANYONE who returns to Him!!! It was the story of the prodigal son that gave me hope when I wandered away from God. If you look at the context of what you quoted from Delta, she was talking about a believer who turns their BACK on Him, or turns AWAY from Him. Now RW said that Christ will never take away our saved status; He only grieves when a believer turns his back/away from Him. The question then was: since He only grieves and never take that saved status away, does that mean that the believer who turned his back on Him is still in a saved status?

[Gerr]

Sigh...think I will bow out of this topic, very depressing to see the emphasis away from the resurrection of Christ and its meaning.

People are still arguing about something that has not been suggested by anyone, but many are willing to see the worst of being saved.

I believe that there is nothing that everyone would rather see than that EVERYONE be saved! OTH, you wouldn't want to see someone have some misconceptions that could lead them to lose their salvation, would you?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

That's the FULL gospel!!!

No' date=' that's a lie! The gospel is, and always has been, the truth about the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, period. [/quote']

Moses was born, lived, died, and was resurrected too, is that the gospel? No? Why not? Because his birth, his life, his death, his resurrection cannot get me out of the cesspool nor clean me of my filth!!! The birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the gospel, yes!!! WHY? Because it gets ME out of the cesspool, washes and cleans ME up, perfumes ME, and gives ME a new suit! Soooooooooo, apart from the power to save sinners, the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus is no more good news than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Moses!

[Robert]

Soooooooooo, apart from the power to save sinners, the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus is no more good news than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Moses!

Pure, unadulterated heresy!!! Everyone, sinner & saint, those under law and those under grace...those who have accepted salvation and those out to lunch, have life because of Jesus Christ. His birth, life, death and resurrection gives all these the legal right to live!

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass [Adam's] judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

The life you have now, even before conversion, is because Christ took upon our humanity the curse of the law (the 2nd death).

1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

All men have been delivered from "under law" - all men!!! If not, then all men (humanity) would have died the moment Adam sinned. There would have been no Gerry because you would have died "in Adam".

"To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life" [DA 660]

[Robert]

The birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the gospel, yes!!! WHY? Because it gets ME out of the cesspool, washes and cleans ME up, perfumes ME, and gives ME a new suit! Soooooooooo, apart from the power to save sinners, the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus is no more good news than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Moses!

If Jesus didn't legally justify you some 2000 years ago you would have never been born. You would have perished....But you say the gospel does nothing for you until you have been cleaned up! What utter self-righteousness...what utter legalistic nonsense!

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

"In Christ" you are already clean. In Him you have a glorified, sinless humanity. You are complete, not in yourself, but "in Him"! This is what saves.

[Robert]

Moses was born, lived, died, and was resurrected too, is that the gospel?

But Christ was both God and man. He was God, but He assumed our humanity that stood condemned under law. Not only this, but Christ resurrected Himself. Therefore He legally qualified Himself to be our righteousness. Can you say this of Moses? No! So why even make the comparison?

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Soooooooooo, apart from the power to save sinners, the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus is no more good news than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Moses!

Pure, unadulterated heresy!!! Everyone, sinner & saint, those under law and those under grace...those who have accepted salvation and those out to lunch, have life because of Jesus Christ. His birth, life, death and resurrection gives all these the legal right to live!

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass [Adam's] judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

The life you have now, even before conversion, is because Christ took upon our humanity the curse of the law (the 2nd death).

1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

All men have been delivered from "under law" - all men!!! If not, then all men (humanity) would have died the moment Adam sinned. There would have been no Gerry because you would have died "in Adam".

"To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life" [DA 660]

You have just proven my point!!! Our Lord's birth, life, death, and resurrection, is good news because that's what gets sinners out of the cesspool, washes & cleanses them, and gives them a new suit. Let me repeat what you are calling heresy. Apart from its saving power, the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus would be no more good news than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Moses!!!

[Woody]

I agree with Robert.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Pure, unadulterated heresy!!! Everyone, sinner & saint, those under law and those under grace...those who have accepted salvation and those out to lunch, have life because of Jesus Christ. His birth, life, death and resurrection gives all these the legal right to live!

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass [Adam's'] judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

The life you have now, even before conversion, is because Christ took upon our humanity the curse of the law (the 2nd death).

1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

All men have been delivered from "under law" - all men!!! If not, then all men (humanity) would have died the moment Adam sinned. There would have been no Gerry because you would have died "in Adam".

"To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life" [DA 660]

You have just proven my point!!! Our Lord's birth, life, death, and resurrection, is good news because that's what gets sinners out of the cesspool, washes & cleanses them, and gives them a new suit.

No, I'm talking about "in Christ"....You are talking about you as an individual.

[Gerr]

What's new? Would that make it truth?

[Gerr]

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No, I'm talking about "in Christ"....You are talking about you as an individual.

Can you be "in Christ" and be filthy and stinky?

[Robert]

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No, I'm talking about "in Christ"....You are talking about you as an individual.

Can you be "in Christ" and be filthy and stinky?

At one time, yes....But after the resurrection, no.!

Christ assumed our filthy, stinky humanity brought forth in iniquity. He assumed it at the incarnation and for some 32 years lived a perfect life in it. At the cross our life died the 2nd death. Sin went to the eternal grave. At the resurrection Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from all sin. That humanity is ours by faith. We receive it at the 2nd coming.

We are children of Adam. We are fallen...we are imperfect...we are still sinners even though we experience growth. What we have "in Christ" is what saves. What we experience proves our faith, not our goodness.

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

No, I'm talking about "in Christ"....You are talking about you as an individual.

Can you be "in Christ" and be filthy and stinky?

At one time, yes....But after the resurrection, no.!

At one time, yes? Do you mean that ALL the OT saints died filthy and stinky? And did not become washed and cleaned until after the resurrection? INCREDIBLE!!!

Quote:

Christ assumed our filthy, stinky humanity brought forth in iniquity. He assumed it at the incarnation and for some 32 years lived a perfect life in it. At the cross our life died the 2nd death. Sin went to the eternal grave. At the resurrection Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from all sin. That humanity is ours by faith. We receive it at the 2nd coming.

We are children of Adam. We are fallen...we are imperfect...we are still sinners even though we experience growth. What we have "in Christ" is what saves. What we experience proves our faith, not our goodness.

Rob

Who is saying man has any goodness on his own? "No one is good except God alone," Lk 18:19. But, "we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them," Eph 2:10 ESV. The gospel, the plan of salvation, is not about some make believe theory that because of Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection, we sinners could be accounted as being out of the cesspool, washed clean, perfumed and given a new suit. God would be the laughingstock in His universe if He made such a claim while the sinner is still wallowing in the cesspool, filthy and stinky. NO!!! "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil," 1 Jn 3:8, "He has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire." 2 Pe 1:4 ESV.

God wants us to be like Jesus, to be like Him!!! Partakers of the divine nature!!! That's why the Gospel is not just some make-believe pronouncement to the universe that we are sinless; He actually puts in motion the process called sanctification to make us so. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Co 6:9-11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

There is no place or point in the plan of salvation where man could claim one iota of goodness/works that would merit salvation. As Paul said, it begins with faith and ends in faith. Jesus began it, and it is He that finishes it.

[Woody]

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"Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

"Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

"If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

"sinful as your life may have been"

Interesting way of putting it. Appears to suggest it may have been but is not at present.

Thoughts?

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

What we experience proves our faith, not our goodness.

Rob

TU and I would suggest proves His righteousness, as I understand it is His righteousness by which we are covered.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves"Ephesians 2:8 KJV

Regards!

[Robert]

At one time, yes? Do you mean that ALL the OT saints died filthy and stinky? And did not become washed and cleaned until after the resurrection? INCREDIBLE!!!

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Gerry...you haven't a clue...why not admit it? If you would pay attention...and if you understood the gospel...you would realize that I am talking about our situation "in Christ".

.

Last time that I checked you were coming up short compared to Christ's life of selflessness....Straw man, Gerry...straw man!

SO you are banking on becoming just like Christ...sinless...perfect, etc? When is this going to happen, just before you die? This damnable heresy on the perfection of the flesh needs to rooted out from Adventism for it is a lie. Even EGW says that as long as life shall last there will be no point where we can claim perfection. So why don't you preach your heresies to the pope. He might agree with you.

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"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you [i.e., in your former life before you believed]. But you were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

If you read the context, carefully, you will come to realize that these believers were "practicing" the sin of swindling. Were they considered "unrighteous"? No! Why not? Read the context:

"But you were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED [past tense], you were JUSTIFIED"

It doesn't say you are being sanctified (which is the work of a lifetime), it says you "were (past tense) sanctified"! So again, it's not referring to your experience, but rather what is true of you "in Christ".

These believers were sinning, but Paul didn't consider them "unrighteous" because of their position "in Christ". Yes, they needed to grow, but the fact is "in Christ" they stand perfect. Sorry you can't understand such....

[Robert]

But you were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Everything we experience as believers is already true of us "in Christ"! E.G., take sanctification:

John 15:3 You are already clean [you are already sanctified in Me] because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Now remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.

1 Cor 1:30 But of Him [God the Father] you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and justification and sanctification and redemption-- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

"In Christ" you already stand sanctified! This doesn't mean that there's no growth in the life of the believer for the Bible states, "Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord."

So while we stand perfectly sanctified "in Christ" if our faith is real we will experience growth, if not you need to question your faith.

Here's another one:

Hebrews 10:7 Then I [Jesus] said, 'Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of me) To do your will, God.'" 8 Saying above, "Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn't desire, neither had pleasure in them" (those which are offered according to the law), 9 then has he said, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He takes away the first, that he may establish the second, 10 by which will we have been sanctified [how, through our experience? No,] through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest indeed stands day by day ministering and often offering the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins, 12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 henceforth expecting until his enemies to be made the footstool of his feet. 14 For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after he has said, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them: 'After those days,' says the Lord, 'I will put my laws on their heart, I will also write them on their mind;'" then, 17 "I will remember their sins and their iniquities no more."

Note, first we stand "sanctified in Christ" then we experience "I will put my laws on their heart" (which is harmony with the last 6 commandments of the law).

Now maybe you can get some much needed rest, Gerry. Chill...you are accepted "in Christ". Now remain "in Him" and you'll grow real fruit....Self-righteous fruit will condemn the believer in the judgment!