A Must Read Letter That Just Came In To Me

[M. T. Cross]

That in itself is repetitive.

My pagan prayers are pretty short, sweet and to the point.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

**sigh** more answering questions with questions.

Fine.

Let me break this down

A.

Quote:

reading God’s Word (lectio)

Whatever your religion this is a good thing. Reading your sacred writings leads to further understanding of the message and of your beliefs. I am fairly sure that we can agree on that

B

Quote:

meditating on what it is saying to you (meditatio)

Sitting with the words you have read. There are a million different forms of meditation. It can be as simple as shutting out all outside influence, noise, distraction and letting those words resonate with you.

Finding the silence within so that you can actually "hear" the Divine

C

Quote:

speaking or praying to God about what it means in your life today (oratio)

Bringing your thoughts to the Divine and inviting it into your life that you may live the words, live the message, BE THE LIGHT. The result btw is infinatly more effective as a testimony than all the door to door, outreach etc ever could hope to be.

D

Quote:

contemplating or simply enjoying the presence of God (contemplatio).

So simply experiencing first hand the sacred, experiencing the holy, experiencing what it is to be connected to your God. This is fullfillment.

Really I think in the end you probably only have an issue with B right? The meditation. I guarantee if you have ever gotten caught up in deep deep prayer - you have meditated or been in a meditative state. Just as Jesus was when he went to the wilderness and fasted. That is extreme meditation.

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Again EC, great questions, and great answers.

I see no problem with what you've asked and definitely no problem with your answers. [/quote']

Thank you sir - this oddly is the approach I have taken for some time. I had no idea that it was a Catholic thing. See good things can come out of bad places

[Woody]

Quote:

The author of the Letter kept saying that SF was not Biblical but then offered no Biblical support to demonstrate that. Instead all their support against SF came from Ellen White.

I've failed to see that SF is contrary to either scripture or EGW.

[Gibs]

From the response that is being given it don't look like Ted Wilson will have much support from the sample of the ones on this forum, I hope it is different in most other places. It's a wrong path to take I am sure for my part.

I would admonish don't take this thing lightly. Do your digging and see where it is coming from.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I wouldn't expect to see a "lot" of support from anybody for anything on THIS forum Gib's. It's just a chat room in the end.

Some see and hear things differently, some don't see much at all. Nothing mysterious about that. This is not a burning issue in MY world, all though it could become one. I wish Ted Wilson the best in dealing with it and support his efforts and the G.C. in general to deal with it.

Next month, there will be another crisis, not to belittle this one, just recognizing the reality. The crisis will become overwhelming at some point and Ted Wilson and the G.C. will appear to have missed the boat entirely!!! It will sure look like the G.C., the church, Pastor Ted and the like have "thrown in the towel", but I'll stay in the ring. I'll see it through to the end, because in the end, I KNOW the church will not fall. It will be purified and it's going to be glorious! :)

[Overaged]

Quote:

The author of the Letter kept saying that SF was not Biblical but then offered no Biblical support to demonstrate that. Instead all their support against SF came from Ellen White.

I've failed to see that SF is contrary to either scripture or EGW.

Spiritual formation is essential to Christian growth. If we are not shaped and formed by the word of God; we have no hope in this life or the next. People keep drumming up the craziest conspiracy theories in opposition to the Adventist church. This particular one has persisted for years. Funny how Gibs cannot provide evidence; only persistence in the accusation.

[Overaged]

I wouldn't expect to see a "lot" of support from anybody for anything on THIS forum Gib's. It's just a chat room in the end.

If this is part of what you call your "glorious;" then I don't want it; nor whatever your religion is that supports it. Who do you think you are would be my first question.

[ClubV12]

It's a simple statement Overaged, folks should not expect to come to any web based forum and expect a "lot" of support for whatever idea they wish to promote or denigrate. It doesn't matter what the idea is or if it's good or bad. The internet is like trying to herd cats. :)

[Gibs]

I would admonish to all, let us make sure this isn't the case today,

Eze 12:1 ¶ The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

I would admonish to all, let us make sure this isn't the case today,

Eze 12:1 ¶ The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I would admonish to you to provide some evidence of your accusations. I would also admonish to you that the Bible only lists one accuser of the brethren...

[Gibs]

I would say the evidence is out in the open, it is not seen by all, is all.

I don't go to any SDA church anymore and I have been told from some who do it is in the church theology. I would say if you don't see it for yourself that is something I can't do a thing about.

I don't accuse no one but am a relayer of a message to be considered by all. For me I see it is true and more. The more I contend with on these forums some.

I'm a slow at typing out things so you will not find my posts and comments prolific. I'm neither a prolific writer or explainer. My explanations of things I have come to find that most don't realize what I do and I must be more prolific but that is hard for me to do.

I do not become riled from people who disagree with me, I don't allow that and no one should.

We should discuss these matters that all have a chance to test all things and come to understand and do the ultimate Will of Jesus Christ. His is the Only Way and I Love it as then we become One in Him We are His and He holds on to us by His Spirit in us. That is a wonderful promise, "Christ in you the hope of Glory"

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Gibs, I am gooing to assume by your lack of response that you indeed can not find the inherent wrongs in reading God’s Word (lectio) meditating on what it is saying to you (meditatio)

speaking or praying to God about what it means in your life today (oratio) contemplating or simply enjoying the presence of God (contemplatio).

[pilgrimatic]

With all this confusion spreading in the church, what do you say to someone who decides to pack up and leave? I read a post by a theology professor in another denomination whose colleague had called it quits . He bemoans the frustrating attitudes that could lead to such a decision. It could easily have been written by an Adventist.

Wow!That is one serious article. Makes you stop and think.

[Gibs]

There was a big and bitter separation in the SDA church some years back and there may be another separation coming I don't know.

The same then though as now, many could see not any problem with the things that came in.

I am hoping for a thorough reformation in all points but it looks so doubtful from what has come.

A couple problems I see are the church has become a corporation and so has set up a visible head. The only head the "True Church" can have is the invisible head, Jesus Christ. "Church" is the name "Ekklesia" and is those called out from all except following that "invisible head"

The next little problem I have is the 501c3 compliancy. That limits severely that a True Ordained of Jesus Christ minister from condemning things such as speaking against any government figure for the wrongs done by them to True Christian Unity and saying that through Jesus Christ only can salvation be had. No condemning abortions, no condemning same sex marriage and homesexuality and etc.

You must see when Jesus Christ established His Church upon Himself there was no visible head of His Church. None of the Apostles ever had such a position and the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ came in them and He Organized His Church and sent them out to where to go and where not to go and that is all that is needed today.

Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles and he added many by the guidance of the Holy Spirit but he never became their head, Jesus Christ by His Spirit done the organizing as He alone can be the Organizer of His Church. If any man organized a so called church it would be his organization with a name of his choosing.

Each of the Apostles was guided by Him, His Spirit to recognize and ordain and baptize by His Spirit more into the ranks of those to spread the True Gospel.

Man has always wanted his own visible king and so it began with one called a "pope." And so it has gone on the same in all that broke out in reform.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

The SDA Church .org has many, many problems.

Their theological problems and organizational problems have not been addressed in the past and so many of these issues continue to grow and become worse and/or sprout into new and worse problems.

I am not surprised that heathen/pagan ideas are creeping into the church and gathering more and more adherents.

Just expressin' my opinion.

[M. T. Cross]

The SDA Church .org has many, many problems.

Their theological problems and organizational problems have not been addressed in the past and so many of these issues continue to grow and become worse and/or sprout into new and worse problems.

I am not surprised that heathen/pagan ideas are creeping into the church and gathering more and more adherents.

Just expressin' my opinion.

Oddly enough after years of ignoring the idea of Jesus and his Father, it was not until I began studying and practicing some pagan/heathen ideas that I started looking at Jesus again.

So maybe some of those ideas and practices could help Christians come closer to thier God?

Maybe people are too quick to judge these ideas simply based on the fact that they are based in another theology?

[Naomi]

The SDA Church .org has many, many problems.

Their theological problems and organizational problems have not been addressed in the past and so many of these issues continue to grow and become worse and/or sprout into new and worse problems.

I am not surprised that heathen/pagan ideas are creeping into the church and gathering more and more adherents.

Just expressin' my opinion.

Really?????

Theological problems ... Organizational problems ..........

Not addressed ....... ?????

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Gibs,

If you could, please point by point break down the wrongs of these things.

reading God’s Word (lectio)

meditating on what it is saying to you (meditatio)

speaking or praying to God about what it means in your life today (oratio)

contemplating or simply enjoying the presence of God (contemplatio).

Please explain for me how these 4 things will take people away from God

Originally Posted By: Gibs

First I ask of you explain to me the need of it.

I have now done so - could you please take your turn

Gibs. As I know you feel passionatly about this subject I find it odd that you do not respond as you said you would. I'm not sure if you are simply ignoring me or if you don't have an answer. But frankly either way its rather bad form and poor manners.

[Gibs]

What I see Naomi and all is that the Theological problems .. Organizational problems have morphed into worse problems and - - would have to be recognized to be addressed.

That in it's self is the answer to the way it, the denomination is falling or failing in these things.

Ted Wilson is recognizing some but I don't know how many and what his progress haa been but it has been a few months now in his sight.

If we don't see some things righted soon you can know then none will come about in any great way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The SDA Church .org has many, many problems.

Their theological problems and organizational problems have not been addressed in the past and so many of these issues continue to grow and become worse and/or sprout into new and worse problems.

I am not surprised that heathen/pagan ideas are creeping into the church and gathering more and more adherents.

Just expressin' my opinion.

Really?????

Theological problems ... Organizational problems ..........

Not addressed ....... ?????

Really, yes, really.

[Overaged]

I would say the evidence is out in the open, it is not seen by all, is all.

I don't go to any SDA church anymore and I have been told from some who do it is in the church theology. I would say if you don't see it for yourself that is something I can't do a thing about.

I don't accuse no one but am a relayer of a message to be considered by all. For me I see it is true and more. The more I contend with on these forums some.

I'm a slow at typing out things so you will not find my posts and comments prolific. I'm neither a prolific writer or explainer. My explanations of things I have come to find that most don't realize what I do and I must be more prolific but that is hard for me to do.

I do not become riled from people who disagree with me, I don't allow that and no one should.

We should discuss these matters that all have a chance to test all things and come to understand and do the ultimate Will of Jesus Christ. His is the Only Way and I Love it as then we become One in Him We are His and He holds on to us by His Spirit in us. That is a wonderful promise, "Christ in you the hope of Glory"

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs; you are accusing the Church of some pretty serious things; yet you say you are not accusing anyone of anything.

You resort to calling me "angry" because I have been trying to get you to post some evidence of these things.

You make excuses like "I am only human;" and then you quote a few Bible verses about "overcoming."

I have read the article several times, and I still have questions. Thats not wrong so don't make it out to be. I am far from "angry" and even if I was that is not the subject of this thread. I want to discuss what you have brought up but you keep posting unrelated "bible talk" that does not prove any of the allegations in THE LETTER that you posted. How do you expect anyone to "see it" if you persist in this conduct and refuse to give us the information we would need to make an informed, intelligent decision?

I did ask you a few posts ago to atleast discuss with me how Jesus treated people who "erred" in the church; how Jesus treated "heathens;" and you have not even replied to this. If we cannot in good faith look at the example of our professed Savior, together, as Christian friends; then He is not our Savior.

You need to come clean and give us some evidence.

[Neil D]

Gibs, I am gooing to assume by your lack of response that you indeed can not find the inherent wrongs in reading God’s Word (lectio) meditating on what it is saying to you (meditatio)

speaking or praying to God about what it means in your life today (oratio) contemplating or simply enjoying the presence of God (contemplatio).

as a side issue, can I ask a question?

This comes very close to a concept of relationship, but it lack one thing...and yes, it is a very important thing....but first, let me explain a relationship....

A relationship with God is very similar to a relationship with your wife, or a friend...it involves communication [which is outlined in EC's lectio, meditatio, oratio, and contemplatio forumula....but in communication, while EC has the one way communication, I propose a TWO way communnication, that is, God talks to each one of us, and not JUST thru the bible....He talks to us, IF we listen to Him....

Now, i understand that time to contempate what God has said, or contemplating some activity that a person believes God to have helped is also providing a time frame for God to speak to us, but unless we listen for God to speak, how can we hear Him? How can that formula be a honest relationship/communication that is so vital for a friendship with God?

Otherwise, what you are doing is going thru a forumula of religious activity, are you not?

I am just asking.....and probably speaking out of turn here, and making observations that have no bearing on this subject...

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Gibs, I am gooing to assume by your lack of response that you indeed can not find the inherent wrongs in reading God’s Word (lectio) meditating on what it is saying to you (meditatio)

speaking or praying to God about what it means in your life today (oratio) contemplating or simply enjoying the presence of God (contemplatio).

as a side issue, can I ask a question?

This comes very close to a concept of relationship, but it lack one thing...and yes, it is a very important thing....but first, let me explain a relationship....

A relationship with God is very similar to a relationship with your wife, or a friend...it involves communication [which is outlined in EC's lectio, meditatio, oratio, and contemplatio forumula....but in communication, while EC has the one way communication, I propose a TWO way communnication, that is, God talks to each one of us, and not JUST thru the bible....He talks to us, IF we listen to Him....

Now, i understand that time to contempate what God has said, or contemplating some activity that a person believes God to have helped is also providing a time frame for God to speak to us, but unless we listen for God to speak, how can we hear Him? How can that formula be a honest relationship/communication that is so vital for a friendship with God?

Otherwise, what you are doing is going thru a forumula of religious activity, are you not?

I am just asking.....and probably speaking out of turn here, and making observations that have no bearing on this subject...

You make a really good point, and its one that could be really expanded upon.

Anytime you do something by formula and do it so without really putting your heart into it, you are just wasting time. That could apply to the Quarterly Communion service, ever as far as the formula to how your Sabbath services are set up. A lot of people that say grace before eating say the same thing every time, same thing with the lords prayer. How often do people really really take the time to slowly go through each of these and meditate on and really experience them, really get to the meaning of them?

You kind of made my point. This formula is a great one for learning to find that silence with in your soul so that you can actually LISTEN. Its a tool. One that in time can be discarded because in time it will become your natural state of study and worship.

[Gibs]

Overaged,

You keep asking for proof, heavens man the proof is in your face, You read what QED posted, Ted Wilson and some more with him at the top see it, you have the proof you need, the same as I have. Spiritual exercises, mentoring, emerging church and lectio divina these are not for me and if it is OK with you and you see no wrong, then go with the flow of it.

I also have another point I have been bringing out in other comments and will make some posts on it in the future, not brought here in this discussion.

His are Only One in Him and don't merge in any way shape or form with the world. His have to go against the "current" of this world which today is so corrupt that He, Yahshua/Yahweh will be bringing an end shortly, the same as in the days of Noah before the flood, but this time it will be a Flaming Fire from our God.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

In other words you have no proof aside from I said so's and letters from malcontents.