Are We Redeemed?

[Woody]

@ JoeMo

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Being redeemed means being an overcomer.

When one understands that we are in need of being born again, which is recognized as a miracle of God alone, it is easier to see the same language is used in being perfect, which is also a miracle of God alone.

Those two requirements are necessarily completed for any of God's children, merely in cooperative submission to the creative acts of the Divine One.

"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."Matthew 5:48 NKJV

Notice the Word "shall" is used, the same as the Word "will', which allows for time to develop the finished product in God's good time.

"So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’"John 3:7 NLT

Sounds like a requirement to me. However no matter how much I might try, I cannot give one shred of my effort to God for the miracle to take place. It's a creative act, much like "be ye perfect".

Praise God, if I continue in supplication for Him to fulfill those two requirements, the only thing that would keep both of them from being accom[plished would be for me to resist His efforts as He holds one thing more dear to Him than our salvation. It is our freedom to make our choices without coercion.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

John 14:15

"If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments" John 14:15 ASV

Jesus is the One Who spoke those Words. Is He a legalist?

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Personally, I find that when I simply spend time with Jesus I have a whole different mindset than when I launch out for the day on my own.

Bible study and reading and meditation all help to fortify, as does putting on the whole armour of God. Prayer and Biblical disciplines all put us where we can listen and receive of Him.

At the end of it all we still have to make choices in this life. But what a difference to our strength level in our minds and bodies AFTER we have received of God!

That is how it works for me, anyway. Ask someone who is a prayer warrior if prayer really makes a difference in the life. Ask someone who reads his/her Bible everyday what that does for the soul.

There is nothing more exciting than a fresh and vibrant spirituality. It beats arguing about theology till it's dead and cold anyday!

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Works replenish the soul. But they do not save it.

Agreed if you're talking of my works. If you're talking of Christ's works, the jury is settled in my mind. First the works He accomplished while here on earth about 2,000 years ago. And then His sustaining works necessary moment by moment, many of which I'm sure I have little awareness of all that is being accomplished.

"But if anyone has this world’s goods (resources for sustaining life) and sees his brother and fellow believer in need, yet closes his heart of compassion against him, how can the love of God live and remain in him?" 1 John 3:17 AMP

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Personally - I believe in Salvation by Faith.

There is nothing in the Word that says we are saved by faith.

"Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved ( delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation)."Ephesians 2:5 AMP brackets parenthesis their's LHC

God blesses!

[cheddar]

And which commandments would those be? The old ones or the new ones.

I seem to remember Jesus talking a lot about faith and love, in fact the whole NT talks a lot about faith and love.

The old covenant was abolished because it was a failure.

'Thou shalt not' and 'agape' are at different ends of the spectrum.

[JoeMo]

LHC,

You quote John 14:15 - "If you love me ye will keep my commandments."

Is that a command or a promise? Is Jesus ordering us to keep His commandments, or promising us that, if we love Him, He will give us the grace (unmerited favor) and power to do so?

I know different translations state this verse differently, but I know nothing of the original Greek.

[Woody]

It's a natural occurance JoeMo. One equals the other.

If we love as we should - we obey as we should.

IOWs our focus needs to be on loving and it will happen.

If our focus is on obeying - then obeying becomes our God and it does not work.

[JoeMo]

Good words, Woody!

C'mon now - Preach it, Brother!

[Gibs]

Yes, I would say that He is saying, If you love me you'll love my commandments and keep them from your love of me and them.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The old covenant was abolished because it was a failure.

I'm assuming your not talking about the "everlasting Covenant"

or the direct Word that Jesus spoke.

"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant , to be God to you and your descendants after you."Genesis 17:7 NKJV

"Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."Hebrews 13:20,21 NKJV

"And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”"Mark 2:27,28 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

LHC,

You quote John 14:15 - "If you love me ye will keep my commandments."

Is that a command or a promise? Is Jesus ordering us to keep His commandments, or promising us that, if we love Him, He will give us the grace (unmerited favor) and power to do so?

I'm satisfied that God's Word, "commandment", is not a demandment, else there would be no free will. And Love cannot exist where there is no free will. Therefor the Word "commandment" indicates an absolutely necessary requirement, and since I can do nothing without Jesus, the promise is in the command in which God provides both, for those who willingly invite Him to guide their lives without reservation.

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

God blesses!

[cheddar]

Quote:

The old covenant was abolished because it was a failure.

I'm assuming your not talking about the "everlasting Covenant"

or the direct Word that Jesus spoke.

"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant , to be God to you and your descendants after you."Genesis 17:7 NKJV

"Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."Hebrews 13:20,21 NKJV

"And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”"Mark 2:27,28 NKJV

God blesses!

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: Gail

I do not look at it as works. It is my joy to come into God's presence. It doesn't merit anything toward any salvation. It is just an awesome place.

I mean, isn't it your joy? (puzzled...)

I think there is a lot of confusion re "works;" and it is sad to watch some of the intense controversys we sometimes see over it.

The way I have come to view works, is simple; and Biblical, as far as I know. They are so intimately connected with the experience of salvation, that it is just as wrong to try to exclude them from the picture, as it would be to try to exclude faith from the picture.

What we keep forgetting is that we are not saved by "faith alone;" for faith itself is not our Savior, or we would then be saved by works! Jesus alone is our Savior. (John 1:29) All the typical arguments re faith versus works are null and void. We don't need to be ensnared by them at all! Coming into God's presence, and experiencing that "joy" that you speak of is a part of that "faith at work" experience that a true Christian will always have testimony about. (1 John 1:1-3, Rev 12:11).

you got it, OverAged. The dying thief almost certainly never had a chance to do any good works after his assurance of salvation.

He was saved by Jesus, only Jesus. Marvelous of you to point that out.

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

God is Good

Thanks, Gail. That verse in KJV is very poetic. It is also almost meaningless. What version was that? It was not quite like my NIV reference.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Is it belief with your head or belief with your heart? Or neither or both or just one of those?

(Just wrenching again... )

Who knows, Gail? Until the organ transplant era,most neurological scientists opined that thinking was only with our brains. Now there is a growing body of evidence that compares and relates the electrical / chemical conducting system within the heart to an auxiliary brain. And to know something "by heart", that is, verbatim, is a vintage old phrase.

Like OA, I appreciated your recent posts on this topic.

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

Jesus departed from Old Covenant doctrine often. Note the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5,6,and 7. A typical expression in that passages is "you have heard that it was said by them of old time --- but I say unto you --- "

Matthew 19: 16 - 21 is a very interesting passage in that respect. Christ omits keeping the Sabbath as a requisite for eternal life. That passage, and Jesus's further recommendation to the young man entails only respect for others, and ultimately love, as the requisite behavior for eternal life.

That passage set the tone for enumeration of the Commandments throughout the New Testament. The required behavior of The New Covenant is Agape ( not mouth wide open, but ). Nowhere in the New Testament is there a commandment to keep the Sabbath.

Perhaps , but relevant to The Final and Last Commandment of Jesus,

Agape

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

. Nowhere in the New Testament is there a commandment to keep the Sabbath.

"But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law.

For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws. For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.” So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law."

James 2:9-11 NLT

I will admit, the only one that God chose to put in the Word "remember", has been almost universally forgotten by the greater portion of Christians. If one feels comfortable in disregarding that one, it will only be a matter of time before the remaining will be trashcanned.

It reminds me of the comment made by an illustrious individual, about the time of the beginning of the Nazi plague in Europe.

Quote:

“Where books are burned, people will next be burned.” ― Heinrich Heine

Same principle. And the world is rapidly heading toward that reality, of which there are already some places in the world we live, in which that scenario is being perpetrated.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

This is a better description of the place that quote came from.

Quote:

“Where books are burned, in the end people will be burned".

(taken from the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.)”

― Heinrich Heine

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The old covenant is not the everlasting covenant, the new one is.

Interesting to note that out of the eighteen times "everlasting covenant" is mentioned in the Word, it's found only twice in the New Testament books. What significance might you determine for that?

And could you give the scriptural reference that would indicate your conclusion noted above. Thanks.

God blesses!

[Robert]

"But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law. For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws. For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.” So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law."

James 2:9-11 NLT

BTW, this is off subject a bit. However, I see nothing about the Sabbath above.

[Gibs]

The subject of this thread is "are we redeemed" and yes we can be but how is the question. The answer of course is by doing His Will and following Him in His prescribed way.

What does He want us to do and what is not needed? Well let's consider His Words here.

The following from Jesus better be better thought out more than many are, let’s do it now,

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The next statement is to be reckoned with!

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Yes, I would say that He is saying, If you love me you'll love my commandments and keep them from your love of me and them.

What I'm getting at is this, "The Redeemed Will Have This Love!"

Faith in Him and His promise that He in you and you may overcome all things of evil as He did.

Jesus was asked, Mt 19:25 last part, "Who then can be saved?"

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

The subject of this thread is "are we redeemed" and yes we can be but how is the question. The answer of course is by doing His Will and following Him in His prescribed way.

That's the message that the Devil would LOVE to have us believe. What a perversion of the Gospel. For it negates the Sacrifice of Jesus for us. Folks - do not fall for this even though it may be attractive. Narrow is the way ....

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

BTW, this is off subject a bit. However, I see nothing about the Sabbath above.

That could be because the Ten are no longer seen as viable information for those wishing to be fitted into God's plan of salvation. Notice it also doesn't mention coveting what is your neighbor's , nor stealing, nor worshiping other god's. As the Scripture says, destroy one commandment and all the rest will appear less than valuable for denying one's personal desires, in order to be faithful to the Lord of glory.

Does this have anything to do with redemption. If the answer is yes, then one has no problem seeing that from which they are redeemed. If the answer is no, there is nothing from which one will be able to be redeemed?

God blesses!