Luther on the Antichrist

[BobRyan]

With the Bible teaching contrasting the saved person to the lost person's view of the Law of God -- how can we do anything but embrace the words of Paul in 1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"?? - rather than going on the war path against the Law of God as Paul says of the lost in Romans 8:5-8.

[Lysimachus]

Tell it like it is BobRyan!

[phkrause]

Tell it like it is BobRyan!

[Robert]

Gal 3:20....For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law.

[Robert]

You have completely taken this subject off course. Congratulation!

[BobRyan]

On page one you raise the question about the Gospel and just exactly what it is.

In Romans 2 - Paul gives us a direct answer. And you reject it.

The fact that you don't like the answer the scripture gives - is not a sign that the answer to your page one question - right from the Bible - is "off topic".

I think we can all see that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Gal 3:20....For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law.

In Gal 3:20-25 Paul presents the challenge for the lost person - and shows that for the lost - the Law of God offers no solution to their problem of condemnation and total depravity.

IN Romans 2-- Paul shows how the Gospel solves that problem. Paul calls it "my GOSPEL" in Romans 2.

Way to go Paul!!

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gal 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law.

In Gal 3:20-25 Paul presents the challenge for the lost person - and shows that for the lost - the Law of God offers no solution to their problem of condemnation and total depravity.

IN Romans 2-- Paul shows how the Gospel solves that problem. Paul calls it "my GOSPEL" in Romans 2.

Way to go Paul!!

It clearly states that when the "lost person" accepts Christ he/she is no longer "under the jurisdiction of the law". What part of that can't you comprehend?

Also, look at Romans 7:1 "the law has dominion (jurisdiction) over a man as long as he lives"

Since "all have sinned" the law put us (the lost) into "prison" (see Gal 3:23) awaiting execution.

So what's the solution? You say that "the gospel" solution is to obey the law so we can be justified (see Romans 2:13). Well, that's baloney! Paul there is writing about people under the law (Jew & Gentile) - "the lost".

The solution is Romans 7:4,6

4 You died to the law in the body of Christ (see also Rom 6:6),...6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Clearly the believer isn't under the jurisdiction of the law. Hence the law cannot require him/her to obey in order to be justified! Therefore your interpretation of Romans 2:13 is in error. In fact what you present is heresy.

Since the gospel you present is justification by law then you must die. That's why Paul states, "If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" In other words let the law have them. That will shut them up.... After all a dead man can't preach legalism....

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gal 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law.

In Gal 3:20-25 Paul presents the challenge for the lost person - and shows that for the lost - the Law of God offers no solution to their problem of condemnation and total depravity.

IN Romans 2-- Paul shows how the Gospel solves that problem. Paul calls it "my GOSPEL" in Romans 2.

Way to go Paul!!

[BobRyan]

Understanding the condition of the lost and their position when it comes to the Law of God and sin - is step 1. No need to constantly "circle back" to it each time the Bible texts speaking to the saints on the subject of the Law written on their hearts and minds is brought up.

So for those willing to look at the Bible teaching about the saved - the saved person is under the New Covenant with the "Law written on the mind and on the heart" Hebrews 8, Jer 31:31-33. Thus as Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

For example --

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments"

John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Hey, you have eye problems. The believer isn't under law. No man can be saved under law. So stop with the legalism....

[Gibs]

Doing God's will willingly from love, to and for Him is not legalism Robert. Neither is repenatance, Neither is faith that works by Love, Robert that is all it takes!

Take a hold of it.

Now read this and think it out, please?

"Sin is the transgression of the law, and no man can be saved in sin. The sinner must repent toward God, and become obedient to God's law through faith in Christ. Faith is the hand that lays hold on Omnipotence. When we do those things that are lawful and right, through the grace of Christ, we are keeping God's commandments; and to such God has pledged his word that he will do great things. Like Daniel, you may make confession of your sin, and present daily supplication unto God; but however poor and unworthy and erring you may feel yourselves to be, it is your privilege to appropriate the promises of God. You may obtain the grace and help which Christ alone is able to give you. God can no more forget one of his children who is seeking to be obedient to his holy requirements than he can forget himself. The Scriptures declare that Christ has graven us on the palms of his hands, that he holds us in everlasting remembrance. {ST, March 24, 1890 par. 2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Bob states that we must obey the law to be justified. What do you say?

[BobRyan]

Hey, you have eye problems.

You are just saying that because I quote the parts of the Bible you are still debating.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Understanding the condition of the lost and their position when it comes to the Law of God and sin - is step 1.

But even better is to go on to step 2 - the condition of the saved person and their view of God and His Law.

So for those willing to look at the Bible teaching about the saved instead of repeatedly circling back to the problem for the lost -- (and some are willing to move on past a review of step 1 as it turns out)

The saved Person is under the New Covenant with the "Law written on the mind and on the heart" Hebrews 8, Jer 31:31-33.

Thus as Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

For example --

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Which fits perfectly with Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Gal 5

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans 8

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh

13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments"

John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

When I quote Paul -

A more complete view of Paul's statement in that chapter would be --

Romans 2

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[Lysimachus]

Robert seems to fail to understand a principle....

Paul in Romans 2:13 is NOT saying that.... "doing the law justifies us".

The obeying of the law does not justify.

We are justified by faith alone...without the works of the law...

BUT...only those who have been saved by Grace through Faith alone WILL be DOERS of the law. The actual doing does not justify you. Yet, only those who have been justified will be doers. Thus, only those who are DOERS will be justified. But it is not the doing that justified them.

However, if they do not "do", they only reveal that they have not been justified by faith.

Only those who are doers are ones who will be justified, because only the ones doing are the ones that are proving that they were truly saved.

[Robert]

In other words you don't keep the commandments to be saved, you keep them because you are saved.

Well, that's still salvation by law because if you don't keep them you aren't saved. So, if it quacks like a duck - if it walks like a duck - it must be a duck!

[Robert]

As "if" I AM Paul instead of my merely quoting Paul!

Amazing!

You are misusing Paul.

[BobRyan]

So after a massive post where we read nothing but Paul and John writing... the inexplicable response is ...

You are misusing Paul.

As if that solves the problem these texts pose for your preferences.

The objective unbiased readers are not going to go for that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Quote:

...for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

That's the same idea in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law"

In other words we are justified apart from our law keeping.

However, for those "under the law" (5) Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will by them live."

That's the same idea as "the doers of the law will be justified".

verse 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says (not righteousness by law):

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news (the gospel)!"

[Gibs]

Now bottle this one up with the one you posted,

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Robert, I think you'd give your right eye to get rid of Yah's Law.

You wouldn't know sin except by the law,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What is the topic of Romans chapter 3? Justification by faith!

What does JBF mean? We stand just before the law, by faith, in Christ Jesus. It's a righteousness all of God outside any human contribution. That's why Paul states, "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law...."

That's the topic. Do you honestly think Paul is going to contradict himself and now say "we establish the law" through our works?

What Paul is asking is does the doctrine of JBF bypass or make void God's law. The answer is no! Why? By accepting "the faith" (Christ) we have a righteousness that was legally obtained by Christ that answered all the law. Hence "in Christ" we were made obedient to the law and "in Christ" we died the death it demanded.

[Robert]

Notice how Paul keeps stating the same ideas over and over:

Romans chapter 10

Law:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will by them live."

Faith:

... But the righteousness that is by faith says that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

So you have two methods, law or faith. Under law you live by obedience.

Under faith you live because Christ is your righteousness.

Romans chapter 2/3

Law:

"the doers of the law shall be justified"

Faith:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Gal chapter 3

Law:

For as many as are of the works of the law (justification by law) are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live."

Faith:

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith will live."

Conclusion:

There are two paths:

1] You obtain eternal life by your law obedience

or

2] You obtain eternal life by your faith in Christ who established the law in His doing and dying.

[Gibs]

Robert, the ones who rightly do keep the law it is in their hearts and the law then is spoken of as being apart from straining at the letter of it. The law isn't to be kept in any other way. It is there to point out sin and will be what all are judged against.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Faith does establish the law in that it is faith that works. But even the works of faith come by loving Him above all and that law is part of us and is then no yoke. We are not under it then, but of it and for it. It is our love to do.

Yes the law will determine who in the end is an overcomer and received the true Gospel of the Kingdom.

We must come to the place where we need not even think of the law and it is done by us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.