Luther on the Antichrist

October 16, 2012

Yes Bob, Romans 2:13-16 nails it solid without any doubt, I can not see how any could but agree with such a direct scripture.

I agree. Romans 2:13-16 should be plain even to Robert.

October 16, 2012

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Yes Bob, Romans 2:13-16 nails it solid without any doubt, I can not see how any could but agree with such a direct scripture.

I agree. Romans 2:13-16 should be plain even to Robert.

"for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified"

So, you think Paul is teaching that we can be just before the law by keeping it?

If so there's no immediate hope for you guys. You are hopelessly entangled in legalism and self-righteousness.

Ellen White has your numbers:

They are surface workers, and delude themselves with the idea that they are christians. So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation." 1888, p. 796.

October 16, 2012

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Yes Bob, Romans 2:13-16 nails it solid without any doubt, I can not see how any could but agree with such a direct scripture.

I agree. Romans 2:13-16 should be plain even to Robert.

should be

October 16, 2012

LOL, She was chastising U Smith and elder Butler there for what they said of WCW, Jones and Waggoner.

Robert you only post the part you like. She would solidly agree with the acessment of Romans 2:13-16 that it is the gospel and you know that.

We've shown the law and the Gospel are intertwined.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law Robert is in our hearts and it is done unconsciously by our love for Him.

Do you realize we are living in the time pointed to below?

Ps 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

Yes it is the final work He is going to do at the end of this age and it is well nigh that time be assured.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

October 16, 2012

"He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived....Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." RH Sep 25, 1900

So "no" you cannot stand before God's law and stand just. Who are you kidding?

October 16, 2012

Thus when Paul says "It is not the hearers of the LAW that ARE Just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of all mankind" Romans 2:13-16

October 16, 2012

If you use the right "filter" -- all the succeeding cases (in red) given over and over again in Romans 2 will simply "vanish" and all you will have left is failure in Romans 2.

All the justification, Gospel, New Covenant, Law written on the New Heart comments in Romans 2 (red and underlined) will vanish and you will end up with no gospel at all in Romans 2.

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5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

October 16, 2012

The gospel is not what Christ does in you. If you continue to lie about that you will no doubt join Roman when it comes to prominence again.

The gospel is what Christ did with no human contribution. That work is complete...meaning you can't add to it with what He does in you.

You are perverting the gospel....You are in grave danger of rejecting Christ's righteousness. This is a serious warning! Open your eyes....

October 16, 2012

Thus when Paul says "It is not the hearers of the LAW that ARE Just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of all mankind" Romans 2:13-16

Wow...I mean, really wow! That's really neat how you twist the above to make the gospel justification by law obedience.

There's one big problem: Not only does it contradict the context, but Paul basically repeats the this same idea in Galatians chapter three:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law (legalism - adding to the gospel) are under the curse; (why?) for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just by faith shall live." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, rather "the man who does them shall by them live." (In other words you must keep the whole law, in detail, to get life under the law).

October 16, 2012

If we truly do love Him with all our hearts and souls, the law now is no problem at all.

There is one thing for sure and for certain, the gospel brings up the law and it can not be torn from it. The law is a law of love and with love it is the way of it.

" The law and the gospel cannot be separated. In Christ mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. The gospel has not ignored the obligations due to God by man. The gospel is the law unfolded, nothing more nor less. It gives no more latitude to sin than does the law. The law points to Christ; Christ points to the law. The gospel calls men to repentance. Repentance of what?--Of sin. And what is sin?-It is the transgression of the law. Therefore the gospel calls men from their transgression back to obedience to the law of God. Jesus, in His life and death, taught the strictest obedience. He died, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty, that the honour of God's law might be preserved, and yet man not utterly perish. {BEcho, February 8, 1897 par. 1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

October 17, 2012

If you use the right "filter" -- all the succeeding cases (in red) given over and over again in Romans 2 will simply "vanish" and all you will have left is failure in Romans 2.

All the justification, Gospel, New Covenant, Law written on the New Heart comments in Romans 2 (red and underlined) will vanish and you will end up with no gospel at all in Romans 2.

============================================

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Yep. That's right.

October 17, 2012

If we truly do love Him with all our hearts and souls, the law now is no problem at all.

Good, then you can stand before God's holy law, which is as Holy as God is Holy, and proclaim "I am righteous and just before you"? That is what it means to justified by law.

Answer the question Gibs!

October 17, 2012

Thus when Paul says "It is not the hearers of the LAW that ARE Just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of all mankind" Romans 2:13-16

October 17, 2012

Paul said --

Romans 2

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my GOSPEL.

but Robert said --

The gospel is not what Christ does in you. If you continue to lie about that you will no doubt join Roman when it comes to prominence again.

Again your response to the text of Romans 2 is to simply blame the text on me.

That is not the compelling substantive sort of solution that an unbiased objective reader will quickly accept.

You need to embrace Romans 2 and its teaching rather than simply flame-posting Paul each time the Romans 2 text speaking about the Gospel comes up.

in Christ,

Bob

October 17, 2012

Yep. That's right.

Yes, but....

Do you realize that in the original manuscripts there are no verse and chapter divisions? If so, then we need to continue and read "the rest of the story"

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then?

Are we (Jews) any better (then the Gentiles)? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin (i.e., all are bent towards self) 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

Now back to Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law 13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified....

How can you stand just before the law if "there is no one righteous"?

This basically busts up your self-righteous, hellish doctrine that sinful humans can stand just before God's law by their law performance. Your teaching belongs to the antichrist. And, as Martin Luther stated, I now say the same:

When we call the Pope the Antichrist and his minions an evil brood, we do not slander them. We merely judge them by the touchstone of God's Word recorded in the first chapter of this Epistle: "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." [Chapter 6, pp. 237-251]

I might add when I call your doctrines, antichrist, I don't slander you and others like you. I merely judge you and others by God's Word recorded in Galatians 1:6 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed"

October 17, 2012

You can't exegete Romans 2 - by reading Romans 3 "instead".

Romans 3 makes the case that all mankind has a sinful nature and is lost - if left without a Savior - without justification, without the Gospel.

But Romans 2 shows the Gospel in action for those who accept it - and shows the effect of rejecting that Gospel as well. Both examples are given in Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

October 17, 2012

You can't exegete Romans 2 - by reading Romans 3 "instead".

Sure you can....There are no verse and chapter divisions. Paul concludes the whole matter in Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous, no, not one" (Jew nor Gentile is righteous) ...19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin!

So you manipulate, as Satan would have you, out of context Romans 2:12 (the doers of the law will be justified), when Paul CLEARLY teaches that "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight"! None, zero, zilch!!! Got it?

Again, you and others like you are already in Babylon. You are teaching the same type gospel as the coming Anti-christ. You will gladly join him one day and I'll most likely be missing my head because then you can silence me. But until then I'll call you what you are....Pharisees....

October 17, 2012

Any who sin are always fallen back under the law and as Paul has stated and the law revives and I die. The law remains as a schoolmaster. When it is in your heart and it is your law too and done from love one is not under it but has become ONE with it.

In other words when we are obedient and do His will in Love we are ONE with God.

You become a transgressor of love when fallen from it. Without Love doing the law the deeds of it still needs His Righteousness. And that cannot be had without the faith to have the love to do His will, willingly. Doing the deeds unwillingly isn't of faith. His Righteousness can't be put on by an unwilling heart and soul trying to win it by deeds alone.

To me this can be seen in comparing what Paul says in Rom 2 and then what he says in Rom 3. He doesn't disagree with himself in such a short time of writing.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

When we pull out just one verse of the text of the context for a proof text we do the context injustice.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

October 17, 2012

Any who sin are always fallen back under the law....

I don't know how else to say this, so here goes:

. . . You are not resting in Christ's finished work, rather you are depending on your law works to justify you. If you do not repent of this and accept the true gospel you will fall from grace and be lost. I tell you this with all sincerity and honesty. You are danger of apostasy.

October 17, 2012

Any who sin are always fallen back under the law and as Paul has stated and the law revives and I die. The law remains as a schoolmaster.

Gibs, believers don't fall back under the law every time they commit a sin. That is not what Paul said.

Paul was inspired to write:

Quote:

Galatians 3:23-25
[23] Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [24] So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Believers go back under the law when they attempt to earn God's unmerited favor, or justification before God, by obeying a set of rules, including the Ten Commandents. Paul is clear that the only way anyone can be justified-- put in right relationship with God-- is by God's grace through faith/trust in Jesus Christ.

The law is a school-master to those who don't realize their sinfulness and need of God's forgiveness and are not in a faith-based relationship with Jesus Christ.

October 17, 2012

Yes, John317, you are right, just one sin doesn't. I did not get that stated right. It looks to me though if he continues to do so, he has fallen back into the old wllow, a backslider and no longer has the law in his heart.

Then if he works to do the deeds of the law for approval his is under the law again.

But if he fell away and don't care no more he has put away the law, is lost but alive to sin as long as this life lasts.

And to Robert, you are coming to the place I must ignore you as you are a pompous and arrogant one. Your responses are aimed to belittle or cut. Robert I could never agree with you as your see is based on a few scripture you like and the ones to balance it out you will not hear.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

October 17, 2012

you are coming to the place I must ignore you as you are a pompous and arrogant one.

Good...ignore away....

October 19, 2012

You can't exegete Romans 2 - by reading Romans 3 "instead".

October 19, 2012

here we see the clear illustration of BOTH groups -- the saved AND the lost - and it is precisely in that CONTRAST - that Paul makes his point in Romans 2!