Luther on the Antichrist

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 53 says that Christ took the torment suffering "for US to whom the stripes were due".

1John 2:2 says "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and not for our SINS only but for the SINS of the whole world"

And Peter affirms this same point that we are redeemed by with "precious blood as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ" 1Peter 1:18-19

And Paul says that "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" 2Cor 5.

How did God make Christ to literally be sin as the son of man?

Our job is not to "be God" - so we do not need to know how He does what He does -- only have faith that He does do what He claims He does.

That is the difference between CreatOR and CreatED.

Having said that - I think it is clear from the texts above that Christ paid the suffering and torment "second death" debt of sin that we each owe according to the Law of God.

God could have simply tossed the penalty that His Law demands - out the window, making His own law worthless.

Instead HE chose "atonement" that pays the debt owed according to the Law and yet provides a door of salvation for the lost sinner.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: earl40

It does NOT mean Jesus became sin. That is a silly belief ....

Okay, then how could God legally condemn Christ who was sinless? The law condemns sinners, not the righteous.

The Law demands that the second death torment that you see in Rev 14:10-11 and in Rev 20 be the payment for the debt of sin.

God "could" simply forgive all sin - declare His own law to be worthless - null and void, and in true Calvinist fashion - arbitrarily select one to be saved and 10 to be lost.

The "Atonement" model by contrast is a model that calls for a "substitutionary atoning sacrifice" and the "whosoever will" offer of salvation to all mankind - not just the arbitrarily selected "few" of Matt 7.

For "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance".

Christ is not condemned by His Father.

In 2Cor 5 we are told that "God (the Father) is IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself".

Christ said that He is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him (John 17) -- it is God who is crucified on the cross - not someone "else". It is God who suffers and endurse the debt of sin that His OWN Law demands of the sinner.

On the cross Christ is standing in the place of one who is to receive all the suffering and torment for all the sins of all humanity in all of time. His payment of the debt is to fully supply all that His own law demands in that regard.

The result is that the Law of God is upheld rather than trashed.

And at the same time - a door is opened for the lost sinner -- a way of escape - to anyone willing to die to self and live as the "new creation" with the "new heart" of Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 - (The New Covenant).

But as Christ points out in Matt 7 and in Matt 10 - not many are willing to take up their cross and follow Him. To die to self and live for Christ as the new Creation.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

On the cross Christ is standing in the place of one who is to receive all the suffering and torment for all the sins of all humanity in all of time.

No, sin can't be transferred from the guilty to the innocent. No law will allow that and especially God's law.

What you are teaching is a lie. It's a false gospel.

[Robert]

The result is that the Law of God is upheld rather than trashed.

No, not if you didn't die. The law demands the death of the sinner. You must die, not Christ. Hence the law has not be upheld because an innocent man died instead of the sinner....

[Robert]

Here's the problem...this issue was taken care of back in the 1888 GC, but the majority of the church rejected it. For over 100 years the church as been preaching a false gospel one that brings in legalism. The church, to a large degree, has been wandering in the wilderness.

[Gibs]

What really happened to the message of righteousness by faith of 1888 was the most that took it up went too far from the ditch of legalism upon the road only to fall off in the oposite ditch of liberalism.

That transitition was slow at first but people love it if smooth things are preached for the itching ears and do people have itching ears to continue in sin.

What is preached today from most pulpits of Adventism today is not the message of Jones, Waggoner and EGW. Nowdays to walk on the narrow way path is lableled as legalism. It is the way that saves from sin and not in sin. None not one will be saved in continuing sin. Christ's will have put to death the old man of sin.

The liberals hate to see this verse come to light in front of their eyes,

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Well if one isn't dead to it, he'll continue in it and find himself, well helpless following Satan.

Righteousness by faith, what is it?

Is he now free to transgress God's law? Says Paul: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" And John declares: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous" (Romans 3:31; 6:2; John 5:3). In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. . . . {NL 12.3}

A faith that one is saved in continuing sin is PRESUMPTION, not FAITH.

Let us take a hold of TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS by FAITH and drop this PRESUMPTION STUFF!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Gibs, how many times do I have to remind you that the subject is about how the antichrist perverted the gospel. So let's stay with the gospel.

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 53 says that Christ took the torment suffering "for US to whom the stripes were due".

1John 2:2 says "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and not for our SINS only but for the SINS of the whole world"

And Peter affirms this same point that we are redeemed by with "precious blood as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ" 1Peter 1:18-19

And Paul says that "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" 2Cor 5.

No, sin can't be transferred from the guilty to the innocent. No law will allow that and especially God's law.

What you are teaching is a lie. It's a false gospel.

Your argument is with the text.

1 Corinthians 15:3

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Galatians 1:4

who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father

1 Peter 2:24

who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

1 Peter 3:18

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

1 John 2:2

And He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 John 4:10

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>1 John 4:10

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.<<

Ah so, there it is. Ain not never read in Writ, "Gd is Law"; however, have read that "Gd is Love". Seems that Love

superintends Law, which, of itself, is no more than formulary... applicable by degree hither, thither, and yon - sometimes dependent upon such as 'jots and tittles', sometimes not. However, one assumes that

the Love of Gd is, well, matrix-like - that binding, girding, and underlying - 'all', as in 'e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g'. The universal touchstone...

[Robert]

bore our sins in His own body

What does that mean?

[BobRyan]

It means that he suffered for us "to whom the stroke was due".

1 Corinthians 15:3

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

The death he died - and suffering he endured - were done for us.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

It means that he suffered for us "to whom the stroke was due".

Please....stop it, not even close....

[Gibs]

Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

[Gibs]

No! Robert, if you comphrehend those verses they answer the question you brought up.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

No they do not! Those verses are not about the gospel, but rather the fruits of the gospel.

[Gibs]

Well why then Robert don't ya tell us what you see the gospel to be. I think we are wondering, at least some of us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Well why then Robert don't ya tell us what you see the gospel to be. I think we are wondering, at least some of us.

I thought you knew it? What did Christ say?

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

How can you take the gospel to the world if you can't articulate the gospel? What you know is legalism and legalism is not the gospel...it's heresy.

[Gibs]

I knew you had a different version than we and your picture of the gospel would take the law and leave it clean out and you don't have the true gospel no more.

"The law and the gospel are interwoven as warp and woof. Here mercy and truth have met together, and righteousness and peace have kissed each other. We want to come to God’s standard. He has a law governing human intelligences, and it is for our happiness to observe it. We are to love God. Love leading to disobedience is the inspiration of the devil; love leading to obedience is the inspiration of Heaven." {CTr 62.3}

You just cannot disagree with that quote can you?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[earl40]

Originally Posted By: earl40

It does NOT mean Jesus became sin. That is a silly belief ....

Okay, then how could God legally condemn Christ who was sinless? The law condemns sinners, not the righteous.

Jesus took the place of sinners. I find your disbelief in The Gospel (Jesus lived a life of perfection and took on the penalty of sinners upon Himself on the cross) troubling. IOW don't call yourself any type of Christian if you do not believe in The Gospel.

[Robert]

I knew you had a different version than we and your picture of the gospel would take the law and leave it clean out....

What did I say? The law demands the death of the sinner. If Christ did away with the law, then His death (as the son of man) was totally unnecessary.

Again, "How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?" According to the Bible itself no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty.

Notice, the law is not left out!

[Robert]

IOW don't call yourself any type of Christian if you do not believe in The Gospel.

I don't believe YOUR gospel....Your gospel is not ethical. It doesn't answer the demands of God's law.

[Guest]

Malarky

[Gibs]

Robert, why don't you lay it out exactly what you see of this question as I think you have us confused now of what you are saying.

I find your question has been answered but we need to catch something from your understanding that we might be able then to word it right so you catch it.

I am beginning to think you are trying to prove something that cannot be proven.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I find your question has been answered ....

No, it hasn't....All you've said is God can do as He pleases. That's not an answer, that's nonsense for God cannot and will not sin.