Luther on the Antichrist

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?" According to the Bible itself no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one!

God pays the suffering-and-torment debt of sin owed by the sinner according to His Law. The demands of the Law are met.

In Luke 12 Christ said that the one who knows much - owes much and the one who knows little and yet goes to hell - owes less (assuming both are guilty of the same things for comparison).

Christ pays the suffering and torment debt owed by both.

Thus the penalty demanded by the Law is met.

Furthermore the sinner is born again - a new creation take place and from then on the sinner "by the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8.

Because of that combination (payment in full, transformation via the miracle of the new birth, daily putting to death of the old nature - the deeds of the flesh) - we have both justice and mercy in harmony in the Gospel.

[earl40]

Originally Posted By: earl40

OK who is saying "According to the Bible itself no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one!".

That would be me!

Ez 18:19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Guilt can't be transferred. The soul that sins is the one that must die.

Just currious if you don't believe if Jesus took upon Him the sins of His children?

[Gibs]

IT IS HIS bLOOD!

I saw four angels who had a work to do on the earth, and were on their way to accomplish it. Jesus was clothed with priestly garments. He gazed in pity on the remnant, then raised His hands, and with a voice of deep pity cried, "My blood, Father, My blood! My blood! My blood!" Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from God, who sat upon the great white throne, and was shed all about Jesus. Then I saw an angel fly with a commission from Jesus, swiftly flying to the four angels who had a work to do in the earth, and waving something up and down in his hand, and crying with a loud voice, "Hold! hold! hold! hold! until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads." {CET 102.1}

I asked my accompanying angel the meaning of what I heard, and what the four angels were about to do. He said to me that it was God that restrained the powers, and that He gave His angels charge over things on the earth; that the four angels had power from God to hold the four winds, and that they were about to let them go; but while their hands were loosening, and the four winds were about to blow, the merciful eye of Jesus gazed on the remnant that were not sealed, and He raised His hands to the Father, and pleaded with Him that He had spilled His blood for them. Then another angel was commissioned to fly swiftly to the four angels, and bid them hold, until the servants of God were sealed with the seal of the living God in their foreheads. {CET 102.2}

Man cannot meet these charges himself. In his sin-stained garments, confessing his guilt, he stands before God. But Jesus our Advocate presents an effectual plea in behalf of all who by repentance and faith have committed the keeping of their souls to Him. He pleads their cause and vanquishes their accuser by the mighty arguments of Calvary. His perfect obedience to God's law, even unto the death of the cross, has given Him all power in heaven and in earth, and He claims of His Father mercy and reconciliation for guilty man. To the accuser of His people He declares: "'The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan.' These are the purchase of My blood, brands plucked from the burning." Those who rely upon Him in faith receive the comforting assurance: "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." {CCh 351.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I said that Christ pays the debt owed by the sinner.

How? How can Christ, an innocent man, die instead of the sinner?

[Robert]

"My blood, Father, My blood! My blood! My blood!"

That's a metaphor, that's a metaphor, that's a metaphor.

What does it mean? Think for yourself and do not rely on Ellen White to do your thinking....

[Robert]

Just currious if you don't believe if Jesus took upon Him the sins of His children?

Again, more metaphors. How do you take sins upon yourself? Sins are actions, not objects that can be placed on folks.

[earl40]

Originally Posted By: earl40

Just currious if you don't believe if Jesus took upon Him the sins of His children?

Again, more metaphors. How do your take sins upon yourself? Sins are actions, not objects that can be placed on folks.

Jesus took the punishment from The Father for the sins of his children. So YES Jesus paid for other peoples sins. To deny this is to deny The Gospel.

[Guest]

How? How can Christ, an innocent man, die instead of the sinner?

According to you, Christ had no reason to die then. Unbelievable how far one will go once they are off the beam.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, (not future) through the forbearance of God;

Your future sins are not covered in advance. The only sins covered are the ones that have been confessed and forsaken.

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Robert]

YES Jesus paid for other peoples sins. To deny this is to deny The Gospel.

By "paid" you mean He was guilty under law?

[Robert]

Your future sins are not covered in advance.

So Jesus died only for your past sins?

When Jesus died you weren't even born, so how could He pay for any sins?

[Guest]

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I didn't say it, Paul did. Grace is twofold. Forgiveness of the past, and power for the future. If you slip and fall back into sin, you can still repent and move forward. There is always hope for the sinner like me.

[Robert]

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

We are still off subject. Now you are writing about righteousness by faith or the acceptance of the gospel. I want to talk about the gospel. Why don't you? Why do you try so hard to avoid the subject?

[Gibs]

And me, and Robert, and JoeMo, and for all, praise be His Holy and Wonderful Name!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

We are His Purchase of whom He gives His Gospel to.

"The Saviour longs to manifest His grace and stamp His character on the whole world. It is His purchased possession, and He desires to make men free, and pure, and holy. Though Satan works to hinder this purpose, yet through the blood shed for the world there are triumphs to be achieved that will bring glory to God and the Lamb. Christ will not be satisfied till the victory is complete, and "He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied." Isaiah 53:11. All the nations of the earth shall hear the gospel of His grace. Not all will receive His grace; but "a seed shall serve Him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation." Psalm 22:30. "The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High," and "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." "So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun." Daniel 7:27; Isaiah 11:9; 59:19. {DA 827.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

There is always hope for the sinner like me.

[Gibs]

I agree with Sister White as to what the true gospel is,

" The gospel is the power and wisdom of God. {FLB 88.5}

Christ had been sent to earth to represent God in character. . . . He Himself was the gospel. {FLB 88.6}

Many who claim to believe and to teach the gospel . . . set aside the Old Testament Scriptures, of which Christ declared, "They are they which testify of me." John 5:39. In rejecting the Old, they virtually reject the New; for both are parts of an inseparable whole. No man can rightly present the law of God without the gospel, or the gospel without the law. The law is the gospel embodied, and the gospel is the law unfolded. The law is the root, the gospel is the fragrant blossom and fruit which it bears. {FLB 88.7}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I agree with Sister White as to what the true gospel is,....

In other words you can't think for yourself. Go to your Bible, Gibs, just like Ellen White said. Stop relying on her! Is she your pope? No wonder folks think most SDA are a cult. They talk not of the Bible, or of Jesus, but of Ellen White. Ellen White states this and Ellen White states that. Go to your Bible...especially Paul...and prove to me the gospel there. Can you?

[Robert]

"How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?"

[Robert]

I want to talk about the gospel. Why don't you? Why do you try so hard to avoid the subject?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I said that Christ pays the debt owed by the sinner.

How? How can Christ, an innocent man, die instead of the sinner?

Isaiah 53 says that Christ took the torment suffering "for US to whom the stripes were due".

1John 2:2 says "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and not for our SINS only but for the SINS of the whole world"

And Peter affirms this same point that we are redeemed by with "precious blood as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ" 1Peter 1:18-19

And Paul says that "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" 2Cor 5.

This is what the doctrine of substitutionary atonenment is all about.

God's Law declares "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 - that is the death that Christ died in our place -- IF we choose to accept it --otherwise we too will die that death - and we will not live to tell about it.

Then of course there is that whole Hebrews 10:4-12 thing.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

And Paul says that "He (God) made Him (Jesus as God) who knew no sin to be sin (as a man) in our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" 2Cor 5.

How did God make Christ to literally be sin as the son of man?

[earl40]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

And Paul says that "He (God) made Him (Jesus as God) who knew no sin to be sin (as a man) in our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" 2Cor 5.

How did God make Christ to literally be sin as the son of man?

Are you asking because you do not believe Jesus took the punishment of sinners upon Himself at the cross? The verse quoted means nothing more than that. It does NOT mean Jesus became sin. That is a silly belief of the TV preachers that have little command of written language.

[Gibs]

I Reckon it to be our God's right to make us a Redeemer of Himself and Jesus Christ born of Mary to "be" sin for us, no, the verse does not say He made Him sin as the proof is He didn't sin. He who had no sin only could be given to be sin for us.

On Him God laid the burden of all sinners who will come to Him in the way He has made.

"In these words Christ is speaking to every human being. Whether they know it or not, all are weary and heavy-laden. All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. But the Sinless One has taken our place. "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6. He has borne the burden of our guilt. He will take the load from our weary shoulders. He will give us rest. The burden of care and sorrow also He will bear. He invites us to cast all our care upon Him; for He carries us upon His heart. {DA 328.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

It does NOT mean Jesus became sin. That is a silly belief ....

Okay, then how could God legally condemn Christ who was sinless? The law condemns sinners, not the righteous.

[Robert]

....the verse does not say He made Him sin ....

(The Darby Translation)

21 Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him.