Robert Posted October 21, 2012 Author Posted October 21, 2012 Are you familiar with the concept of "Atoning Sacrifice" and the meaning of "through faith in His blood" and the idea of "Atoning sacrifice for our SINS"? Yes, but that doesn't answer my question. Can you answer it or not? yes, no?
Gibs Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 Robert you state, This didn't answer the question. BTW, the Son of God wasn't sacrificed. "Deity did not sink and die" (Ellen White) Yes dear friend, Jesus the son of Mary and also the Son of God the man died. Deity in Him of course did not as that is the Father vested in Him. Deity cannot die, never, He is the eternal one. God made salvation the only way it can be had and dear Robert you are being obstinate and not seeing what the real case of it is and why it had to be this way. The union of man and God is a mystery with our finite minds we are not able to comphrehend. Angels are amazed and in awe. Only God could atone for our sin and the proof that the man Jesus was God with us is, Remember Deity don't have blood to shed, but the Man God Jesus does, Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. I am sure Luther had the gospel spelled out right and so did Sister White. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
BobRyan Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 Originally Posted By: Gibs And the question to be settled was How could God be just and true to His law and yet justify the sinner? This could be done only by the sacrifice of the Son of God. . . . {CTr 216.3} This didn't answer the question. BTW, the Son of God wasn't sacrificed. "Deity did not sink and die" (Ellen White) John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Robert Posted October 21, 2012 Author Posted October 21, 2012 Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased (past tense) the fallen race with His own blood. This (the gospel - i.e., the humanity of Christ) is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in all its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. But the enemy is determined that this gift shall be so mystified that it will become as nothingness (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 5, p. 1113). So just because we don't understand everything to do with the incarnation, let's not fold our hands and act ignorant. We do have the gospel to present, but first you have to know it.
Robert Posted October 21, 2012 Author Posted October 21, 2012 The Gospel solution pays the debt that the Law demands for sin - and it provides for the new Birth - thus the sinner's penalty is paid and he is born again with a new heart (new Creation) that is in harmony with the Law of God - having "the Law of God written on the mind and on the heart" under the Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant. The gospel paid more than the debt. "In christ" (the gospel) I have a new creation. I said "in Christ" in the heavenly places, not in me. The only thing that's changed in me (if I have received the gospel and I'm resting in it) is my character, my mindset. But that's not the subject here! The subject is how did Christ legally save you and me? That's the gospel!!! He didn't just pay the debt. Read 1 Cor 1:30 "But of him [God] are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom - justice and sanctification and redemption (glorification)." "In Christ" my humanity has, 1] has paid the justice of the law 2] has been made holy 3] and has been redeemed from my fallen humanity All this I have in Christ already by faith. I am already clean in Him, even though in my experience I am falling short. I have a new humanity (a new creature) "in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (see Eph 2:6) This I have "in Christ". This is the gospel & nothing else. What I experience does not add to what Christ did 2000 years ago, rather it proves my faith in Him so that He can present perfect in Himself in the judgment against the accusations of Satan.
Robert Posted October 21, 2012 Author Posted October 21, 2012 In a simplified version the gospel is this: God put your humanity in Christ. He combined your fallen humanity with Christ's deity in the womb of Mary. Hence at the incarnation Christ, as God, took upon His Deity our fallen humanity - the humanity that needed redeeming. Therefore Christ became the last Adam (or the 2nd Adam). In our humanity Christ lived a perfect life of agape. And on the cross our humanity died the 2nd death - the curse of the law. And on Sunday morning Christ, as God, came forth from the grave with a glorified, sinless humanity. This He took with Him to heaven. Hence, in heaven, we have a new, sinless, glorified humanity in Him. We receive this life at the 2nd coming if we have accepted the gospel and are found resting in Him. So, in Christ, you have 1] Obeyed the law perfectly 2] died the 2nd death (the curse of the law) 3] and were resurrected with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. This we already have "in Christ" (the gospel). Now, as we rest in Him, we experience, 1] Justification - peace with God. We are no longer under the curse. 2] We begin to grow in agape (the law written in our mind). 3] and finally, at the 2nd coming, we receive our glorified life (humanity) from Him. Then we will be perfect as He is perfect.
Robert Posted October 21, 2012 Author Posted October 21, 2012 Therefore we MUST have our assurance of salvation "in Him" or we will never experience holy living. Instead, we will experience self-righteousness and legalism. Until we rest in His complete redemption (of which the Sabbath is a symbol) we will never be able to experience genuine agape love. All we will experience is a yoke of bondage!
Gibs Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 I don't know of any legalists on this forum Robert and for me there is NO self rigteousness or legalism. I in no way experience any yoke of bondage. If we do truly have what you call agape' love then we do His will and our love is as his and the law has become our nature and our love, no yoke to it! Agape' Love Hates sin as He does. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted October 21, 2012 Author Posted October 21, 2012 I don't know of any legalists on this forum Robert and for me there is NO self rigteousness or legalism. I in no way experience any yoke of bondage. Okay, let me test your theory (your eye sight). Are you blameless before God's law? Yes, no...almost???
Gibs Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 You will have to ask Him, He is my judge and yours. In Him I am covered with His Robe He sees me as such and that is what counts. I do do that which pleases Him. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Guest Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 You will have to ask Him, He is my judge and yours. In Him I am covered with His Robe He sees me as such and that is what counts. I do do that which pleases Him.
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Author Posted October 22, 2012 You will have to ask Him, He is my judge and yours. In Him I am covered with His Robe He sees me as such and that is what counts.
Gibs Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 You see Robert, I am in Him and He is in me. He is the life in me now and by faith I have eternal life now too although appointed once to die. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Author Posted October 22, 2012 Yes, He is in me too, as I have accepted the gospel, yet I'm not perfect. That's because God will never force His agape (written in my mind) on me when tempted by my bent-to-self that resides in my members. He can only control my bent IF I surrender my mind to "the law of the Spirit" when tempted. If I don't or try with my own will power I will fail.
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Author Posted October 22, 2012 In a simplified version the gospel is this: God put your humanity in Christ. He combined your fallen humanity with Christ's deity in the womb of Mary. Hence at the incarnation Christ, as God, took upon His Deity our fallen humanity - the humanity that needed redeeming. Therefore Christ became the last Adam (or the 2nd Adam). In our humanity Christ lived a perfect life of agape. And on the cross our humanity died the 2nd death - the curse of the law. And on Sunday morning Christ, as God, came forth from the grave with a glorified, sinless humanity. This He took with Him to heaven. Hence, in heaven, we have a new, sinless, glorified humanity in Him. We receive this life at the 2nd coming if we have accepted the gospel and are found resting in Him. So, in Christ, you have 1] Obeyed the law perfectly 2] died the 2nd death (the curse of the law) 3] and were resurrected with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. This we already have "in Christ" (the gospel). That's the gospel, now we need Biblical proof....I can deliver....Can you?
Gibs Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 The gospel didn't curse the law, the gospel stands on the law. Satan made it out the law was a curse. The law condemns the sinner is all and rightly so. That is what it is for and all will be judged by it so don't be so quick to try to put it out of sight, because you can't. It is eternal as the God of it is. Go sell your gospel to those who care not to live eternally. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Author Posted October 22, 2012 Your gospel is not the gospel of Paul. It is the gospel of the Pharisees and Judaizers. I must with all my might oppose it and those, like yourself, who preach it. You must be opposed!
BobRyan Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 Oh good - we are back to the Gospel of Paul - Notice that in Romans 2:13-16 some are actually saved - and counted as saints who do not know the Law but "Do INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law showing the WORK of the Law written on the heart... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind". Let us look even closer at just how Paul declares the one who is without the Bible - to be saved in that example - "who does instinctively the things of the Law showing the WORK of the Law written on the heart". Romans 2 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. It is perfectly clear that the gentile example is succeeding in the Romans 2:13-16 and Romans 2:26-29 illustration Paul makes in Romans 2. Paul is emphatic in Romans 2:6-12 that BOTH the succeeding cases AND the failing cases are IN the scope of his topic. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 A more complete view of Paul's statement in that chapter would be -- Romans 2 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Gibs Posted October 22, 2012 Posted October 22, 2012 If you noticed Robert, Paul had the law in his Gospel as BobRyan posted above and all are judged by it. A gospel message without the law is the false gospel saved in sin. That is the lie Satan would like to have spread, just like he told Eve, in the dsy you eat you will not surely die. No Robert the Gospel you portry is the one that is deadly false. That law Robert is the law of love from our benevolent God of love, so why do you hate it so? I don't understand you. It can only be kept from our love of Him and right, justice and love. He has done not one, any wrong and never will. No fault is to be found in Him and never will. In the very end every last one will bow the knee and confess that fact. Those who truly do love Him above all, show that they do, they keep His commandments! This is what is said of the ones who gave the EVERLASTING GOSPEL in Rev 14:, Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. You better believe it Brother, Sister White has it right and jibes square on with the Word! She or I Robert or any of us who portray the gospel truth as we do are not legalists in no way shape or form, get off that rant! We are at this day, - - , 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; Yes smooth things to OK continuing in sin! But they forget, to cancel the law, God has to be taken out. Don't try it! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted October 22, 2012 Author Posted October 22, 2012 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [why?] 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. You can't sin under law. Why? You will be judged. Hence, "the doers of the Law will be justified". If you are under law you must be a doer of the law to be justified by law. That's what it is saying. Clearly you aren't under law, or are you?
BobRyan Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 You can't sin under law. Why? You will be judged. that is true of the lost - they are stuck and the only way out is to accept Christ as their savior? But what does Paul say about those under the GOSPEL in Romans 2? (You know -- the "Gospel" where the LAW of God is written on the mind and on the heart?? Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:31-33) Romans 2 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Robert Posted October 23, 2012 Author Posted October 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: Robert You can't sin under law. Why? You will be judged. that is true of the lost - they are stuck and the only way out is to accept Christ as their savior? No, a legalistic believer, like yourself, can be under law. It's called legalism. Under law you must be "a doers of the Law" to be justified. Now, for the lost, who have accepted Christ - are they under law? No! Gal 3:20....For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law.
BobRyan Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 How often we are reminded of the truth of Paul's statement in Romans 8 -- Romans 8 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.God. The lost person is not under the Gospel - just under the condemnation of the Law. The saved Person is under the New Covenant with the "Law written on the mind and on the heart" Hebrews 8, Jer 31:31-33. Thus as Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31 The heart of the lost person is in rebellion against the Law of God - it does not submit to the Law of God - "neither indeed can it". More on the lost person's perspective on the Law of God and sin - according to the Bible. Rom 3: 9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.'' 13 "" THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,'' "" THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS''; 14 "" WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS''; 15 "" THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.'' 18 "" THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.'' Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:23...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us Romans 8 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 1Cor 6 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 2 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Romans 3 and Galatians 3 agree - that lost are lost. No amount of obedience on the part of the lost - can save them. The lost person has only one solution - the Gospel with its forgiveness, and new birth, and new heart and freedom from the penalty of sin - and freedom from slavery to sin. Clearly - we all can see this part. No need to keep circling back to it in an effort to avoid what the Bible says to saved saints by comparison. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Understanding the condition of the lost and their position when it comes to the Law of God and sin - is step 1. But even better is to go on to step 2 - the condition of the saved person and their view of God and His Law. The saved Person is under the New Covenant with the "Law written on the mind and on the heart" Hebrews 8, Jer 31:31-33. Thus as Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31 For example -- 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God". And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins - 1Cor 6 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Romans 6 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, 13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" 1 John 2 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; James 2 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty 1John 2 The Test of Knowing Him 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments" John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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