Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming...

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Wealth is an accrual from hard work, talent, and Gd's blessing.

>>Everything based on self-seeking is sin.<<

That is much too broad a statement. What of the man who, per the injunction of Writ, strives to gain, as to provide for his family – you know, food, housing, schooling, medical insurance, etc – not forgetting the grandmother who is – told in no uncertain language in Writ – that she is to leave an inheritance for her grandchildren? I don’t think that means a scrapbook of photos of her old boyfriends, eh?—no, no, she and grandpa had need to work, scrimp, and save – to accumulate that which to leave as a bequeathment.

Ain not that self-seeking?—sounds like it to me – otherwise, the ‘man’ would just let things slide on the goodness of others. See how far that gets his family! You’ve seen it where there is an insufficiency of wealth – all over the world and even here in pockets…

>>Leave God out of the pic.....<<

Can’t – for He provided the example with Abraham and Sarah in the land of the Pharaohs. With Jacob also, as with many others in Writ whom He’s chosen to bless for your example and mine.

>>He is not the author of sin.<<

Agreed, however, He’s come close, ain He not?—umm, ‘Go forth, and do so’ – to the lying Spirit (1 Kings 22:22).

>>His method of wealth is through agape love, not the love of self.<<

I’ve read that insomuch as – there is no standard in Greek lit (found used, I believe, only three times) – to define agape..., that agape can also mean – ‘of the intellect’. Examp: It is right, good, and obligatory – that I provide for my family - regardless agape - less I be as the infidel.

The above “provide for my family” includes a full pantry with extras hidden off site – that your family may eat – should the untoward occur – and it is a promise that it will occur! It all becomes rather self-seeking and burdensome, does it not?

[Robert]

The world you are comparing this world to was a perfect world. After the fall Adam and Eve had to work,(self seeking) to provide for their families.To work hard and do that is not a sin.

[Robert]

Keep in mind I'm talking to people here who claim to keep God's law of love. If they want to talk grace then they need to admit they are sinners and that there is self-seeking in their lives.

Capitalism is based on selfishness. It's based on gain and self-serving. So if you want to be a commandment keeper to the fullest extent you must renounce all self-seeking.

I like what Pastor Jack states:

Quote:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[Robert]

Here's something I found on the WWW:

“Is capitalism a sin?” I go on to ask, “Would Jesus be a capitalist?” Would he belong to a hedge fund? Would he sell short? Would he approve of a system that has allowed the richest 1% to have more financial wealth than the 95% under them combined?

At the same time, Wall Street bankers are amassing more and more loot – and they do their best to pay little or no income tax (last year Goldman Sachs’ tax rate was a mere 1%!). Would Jesus approve of this? If not, why do we let such an evil system continue? It doesn’t seem you can call yourself a Capitalist AND a Christian — because you cannot love your money AND love your neighbor when you are denying your neighbor the ability to see a doctor just so you can have a better bottom line. That’s called “immoral” — and you are committing a sin when you benefit at the expense of others.

[bonnie]

To provide for your family isn't sin, but the question is how do you get your funds? Do you complete with others? That's sin. Do you try to exploit others for gain? That's sin. In fact anything outside agape is sin. All self-seeking is sin.

[jasd]

As with practically everything - there is the good and there is the bad of Capitalism.

Without European Capitalism, esp that of England - the larger part of America could not have been developed. It were the Europeans seeking to invest as to increase their 'bottom line' who sent monie$ here that funded the great cattle ranches, the railroads, mining, etc - without which, we may still be trying to rise above at least a second world status.

Since, America has truly shared her developed wealth and blessing abroad - where most of the world has benefitted.

Would everyone have better afforded should we have been equally poor?

Love comes in many guises...

[Guest]

As with practically everything - there is the good and there is the bad of Capitalism.

Without European Capitalism, esp that of England - the larger part of America could not have been developed. It were the Europeans seeking to invest as to increase their 'bottom line' who sent monie$ here that funded the great cattle ranches, the railroads, mining, etc - without which, we may still be trying to rise above at least a second world status.

Since, America has truly shared her developed wealth and blessing abroad - where most of the world has benefitted.

Would everyone have better afforded should we have been equally poor?

Love comes in many guises...

Amen.

[JoeMo]

Robert,

I have to agree with jasd and Bonnie. There is a difference between generic capitalism and selfish greed. Many successful people have leveraged the capitalistic system for the good of those around them. Say what you will about Bill Gates; but he's given away more money to charitable causes (maybe not the ones you would have chosen) than anyone else in history.

People griped about how little income tax Romney paid on his millions in income. The liberal media failed to say it was substantially because of his hefty donations to charitable causes.

I admit I'm a sinner saved by grace. By your definition, I'm a sinner cuz I competed with other applicants for darn near every job I've ever had. Does it make me a sinner cuz I got the job and they didn't?

You don't have to be a capitalist to compete. Almost everything everyone does everywhere is competitive in one way or another. You, Bonnie, and I are competing right now for influence on this thread. Does that make us all sinners? Just askin'...

[Guest]

That means Robert is competing also.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

You don't have to be a capitalist to compete. Almost everything everyone does everywhere is competitive in one way or another.

The best reason this helps define why I'm glad for a different system.

" “Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price."

Isaiah 55:2 NKJV

God blesses!

[bonnie]

That means Robert is competing also.

If nothing has changed in Robert's viewpoint, his competition really doesn't matter.He is not under the law

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

That means Robert is competing also.

If nothing has changed in Robert's viewpoint, his competition really doesn't matter.He is not under the law

If nothing has changed in Robert's viewpoint, then he's still looking in the rear view mirror, thinking he's taking in the road ahead.

[Robert]

To believe the commandments are relevant and meant for us today does not mean anyone is saying they keep the commandments perfectly.

Then you have broken all of them if you are not living a life of agape perfectly.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[Robert]

That means Robert is competing also.

Actually, no...I'm not competing. I detest it. I don't like sports for the same reason.

[Robert]

Love comes in many guises...

Yes, self-love comes in many guises. It wasn't God's agape that created wealth (and BTW there are more poor folks than wealthy).

[Robert]

Say what you will about Bill Gates; but he's given away more money to charitable causes (maybe not the ones you would have chosen) than anyone else in history.

[Robert]

He is not under the law

Are you? Hope not....

[Robert]

Competition comes from our love of self.

This makes for good reading: Read!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: RLH

That means Robert is competing also.

Actually, no...I'm not competing. I detest it. I don't like sports for the same reason.

So that's where I'm growing, but I still am "bent-to-self" in other ways. I tend not to love legalists - Christ died for the self-righteous. So here I fall short big time. I tend to have a temper. Again, falling short.

So there are areas where God's changed things, but there are areas where my bent-to-self still is in control.

I, however, am depending not on the things God does in me, but of my position "in Christ".

[JoeMo]

Quote:

So that's where I'm growing, but I still am "bent-to-self" in other ways. I tend not to love legalists - Christ died for the self-righteous. So here I fall short big time. I tend to have a temper. Again, falling short.

So there are areas where God's changed things, but there are areas where my bent-to-self still is in control.

I, however, am depending not on the things God does in me, but of my position "in Christ".

Bless you, Robert!

[bonnie]

Then you have broken all of them if you are not living a life of agape perfectly.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Boy,that is a surprise.

Don't believe I said anyone keeps them all perfectly.That is your charge against those that disagree with you

[bonnie]

Actually, no...I'm not competing. I detest it. I don't like sports for the same reason.

You compete every day of your life if you live in the adult world. Children compete for their parents attention

[bonnie]

So that's where I'm growing, but I still am "bent-to-self" in other ways. I tend not to love legalists - Christ died for the self-righteous. So here I fall short big time. I tend to have a temper. Again, falling short.

So there are areas where God's changed things, but there are areas where my bent-to-self still is in control.

I, however, am depending not on the things God does in me, but of my position "in Christ".

At one time our small church was split into two factions,the legal mindset and the more liberal mindset.

My dad told us to be careful of accepting either as right.

"Be wary of the belief they can slide into heaven on a vegeburger

And those that believe they can't lose their salvation no matter how hard they try.

If you hear the words "I have to" Or "I don't have to" in regards to salvation both tell you where the heart is at.

If the heart is in the right place you won't have to tell anyone. It will show,you cannot hide it

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Actually, no...I'm not competing. I detest it. I don't like sports for the same reason.

You compete every day of your life if you live in the adult world. Children compete for their parents attention

Yep. And he is a fierce competitor here on the forum. To debate IS to compete. Period .

[olger]

Touche' Richard.

rejoice always,

G