Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming...

[Gerr]

Here's something I found on the WWW:

“Is capitalism a sin?” I go on to ask, “Would Jesus be a capitalist?” Would he belong to a hedge fund? Would he sell short? Would he approve of a system that has allowed the richest 1% to have more financial wealth than the 95% under them combined?

At the same time, Wall Street bankers are amassing more and more loot – and they do their best to pay little or no income tax (last year Goldman Sachs’ tax rate was a mere 1%!). Would Jesus approve of this? If not, why do we let such an evil system continue? It doesn’t seem you can call yourself a Capitalist AND a Christian — because you cannot love your money AND love your neighbor when you are denying your neighbor the ability to see a doctor just so you can have a better bottom line. That’s called “immoral” — and you are committing a sin when you benefit at the expense of others.

In a secular world such as we have, what do you think is the best economic system?

[olger]

There are a growing number of people in this country for whom hating “the other” has become a source of identity and a collective excuse for failing to realize their own potential.

[Robert]

A mixture of Capitalism and Socialism. By Socialism I do not mean a take over of the Private Sector; I mean one where you have safety nets for those who lose since our world is based on moving up (competition & self-seeking).

[Robert]

Yep. And he is a fierce competitor here on the forum. To debate IS to compete.

But I don't get something from it....To compete for gain is sin. To compete for a trophy is sin. All self-seeking is sin.

[bonnie]

A mixture of Capitalism and Socialism. By Socialism I do not mean a take over of the Private Sector; I mean one where you have safety nets for those who lose since our world is based on moving up (competition & self-seeking).

We have several safety nets that have become hammocks. The hammocks would not exist except for those moving up.(Competition) Without those moving up and competing with their products/services more will be in the hammocks than providing the hammocks and we will soon be there

[Robert]

We have several safety nets that have become hammocks.

[bonnie]

So the poor have it good? They are living in the country club? Please....

[bonnie]

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/21/news/economy/spending_taxes_debt/index.htm

Today, the United States spends roughly 76 cents of every federal tax dollar on just four things: Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and interest on the $14 trillion debt. That leaves 24 cents of revenue to pay for everything else the federal government does.

That's not a lot. But it's a mint compared to what could be left over by 2020, according to a simulation made by the Government Accountability Office.

Barring serious efforts to curb the growth in the country's debt, by 2020 Washington could be spending 92 cents of every tax dollar on Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and interest alone. That would leave just 8 cents to pay for everything else.

How much of "everything else" can 8 cents buy? Not a lot, especially relative to what Americans are accustomed to their government providing.

[Robert]

Insurance is not socialism.

Sure it is...the profit is Capitalism!

The idea of socialism is the pooling of resources for a common benefit.

[bonnie]

Sure it is...the profit is Capitalism!

The idea of socialism is the pooling of resources for a common benefit.

No,that is government speak of which you seem really fond.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Insurance is not socialism.

Sure it is...the profit is Capitalism!

The idea of socialism is the pooling of resources for a common benefit.

The early Christian Church had socialism, but not by compulsion. They were of one mind & one heart. They had all things in common...there was no selfishness among them. The result? No poverty.

Any socialism we have is by law. You don't have a choice. Now of course that's not God's way, but neither is greed & selfishness. God's way is agape.

Eventually our greed...our selfishness will cause our down fall! Then God will setup a kingdom based on His self-emptying love.

[bonnie]

Unlike your dishonest portrayal of conservatives/tea party members this pretty well spells it out

http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/3-10.htm

1 Ths 3:10

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

.

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you - It would seem from this that the evil of which the apostle here complains had begun to operate even when he was with them. There were those who were disposed to be idle, and who needed the solemn command of an apostle to induce them to labor.

That if any would not work, neither should he eat - That is, at the public expense. They should not be supported by the church. This was a maxim among the Jews (see Wetstein, in loc.), and the same sentiment may be found in Homer, Demosthenes, and Pythagoras; see Grotius, in loc. The maxim is founded in obvious justice, and is in accordance with the great law under which our Creator has placed us; Genesis 3:19. That law, in the circumstances, was benevolent, and it should be our aim to carry it out in reference to ourselves and to others. The law here laid down by the apostle extends to all who are able to work for a living, and who will not do it, and binds us not to contribute to their support if they will not labor for it. It should be regarded as extending:

(1) to the members of a church - who, though poor, should not be supported by their brethren, unless they are willing to work in any way they can for their own maintenance.

(2) to those who beg from door to door, who should never be assisted unless they are willing to do all they can do for their own support. No one can be justified in assisting a lazy man. In no possible circumstances are we to contribute to foster indolence. A man might as properly help to maintain open vice.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

If any would not work, neither should he eat - This is a just maxim, and universal nature inculcates it to man. If man will work, he may eat; if he do not work, he neither can eat, nor should he eat. The maxim is founded on these words of the Lord: In the sweat of thy brow thou shall eat bread. Industry is crowned with God's blessing; idleness is loaded with his curse. This maxim was a proverb among the Jews. Men who can work, and will rather support themselves by begging, should not get one morsel of bread. It is a sin to minister to necessities that are merely artificial.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

For even when we were with you,.... At Thessalonica in person, and first preached the Gospel to them,

we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat; the Ethiopic version reads in the singular number, "when I was with you, I commanded you"; using the above words, which were a sort of a proverb with the Jews, and is frequently used by them, , or , "that if a man would not work, he should not eat" (q). And again ®,

"he that labours on the evening of the sabbath (or on weekdays), he shall eat on the sabbath day; and he who does not labour on the evening of the sabbath, from whence shall he eat (or what right and authority has he to eat) on the sabbath day?''

Not he that could not work through weakness, bodily diseases, or old age, the necessities of such are to be distributed to, and they are to be taken care of, and provided with the necessaries of life by the officers of the church; but those that can work, and will not, ought to starve, for any assistance that should be given them by the members of the church, or the officers of it.

[Robert]

Bonnie, for socialism to work within Capitalism all must work except those who can't. At best Government should supplement those who are struggling, not make them dependent.

[bonnie]

Bonnie, for socialism to work within Capitalism all must work except those who can't. At best Government should supplement those who are struggling, not make them dependent.

You are telling me this why? Tell all liberals this unthinkable concept.

Proverbs 13:4

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing,.... He desires knowledge, but does not care to be at any pains to get it, and so has it not; he desires riches, but chooses not to make use of the means, to be diligent and industrious, and so he is without them; he desires to wear good clothes and rich raiment, but is unwilling to labour for them, and therefore is clothed with rags; he desires food, and plenty of it, but refuses to work for it; and he that will not work should not eat, and therefore he has it not, but starves and famishes: and, in spiritual things, the sluggard desires heaven and happiness, but does not care to do the duties of religion; he would die the death of the righteous, but is unwilling to live his life; to abstain from sin, and live soberly and righteously, is too hard service for him; he does not choose to do or suffer anything for the cause of Christ and true religion. Jarchi's note is, that

"in the future state he shall see the glory of the wise man, and desire it; but shall not attain to it;''

but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat; become rich; increase in temporal things, and have great plenty and prosperity; and so, in spiritual matters, such who are diligent in the use of means, constantly attend on the word and ordinances, and labour for the meat which endures to everlasting life; such are filled and satisfied, as with marrow and fatness; and become fat and flourishing, and fruitful in every good word and work; and shall at last arrive to that state where there will be no more hunger and thirst.

[Robert]

No, that is government speak of which you seem really fond.

No, that's the definition of socialism. What you seem to be promoting is what my friend at work calls Social Darwinism - i.e., the strongest survive and the weak die off.

The problem is that the rich have all the power and money on their side and, if they get their way, pretty soon SS, Medicare and Medicaid, will be gone.

That is Laissez-faire Capitalism - Capitalism with no safety nets - i.e., pure greed at the expense of the poor.

You see the rich have Lobbyist and the poor have no representation (or very little). We vote these crooks in and what do that do? Serve the guy with the money, resources and Lobbyists. It's called a Plutocracy!

[bonnie]

Bonnie, for socialism to work within Capitalism all must work except those who can't. At best Government should supplement those who are struggling, not make them dependent.

Not at best.Struggles in this world is not a disease the government should eradicate at the expense of others struggling.

Ever read the story of Joseph.He certainly came from a dysfunctional family.Must have been terrifying for him at such a young age to be sold into slavery.

I don't see where he whined about the unfairness of life,something we all experience,I don't think he worried a whole lot about competition.Funny how God has instructions even for slaves.We disregard those and make excuses for anyone that claims to be struggling.

Joseph did not do just enough to get by to avoid being whipped or killed.He excelled and his position in life certainly moved up from the lowly slave

[Robert]

He excelled and his position in life certainly moved up from the lowly slave

Bonnie, Bonnie, Bonnie....

God placed Joesph into that position, not for his own personal gain or wealth, but to prepare Egypt for 7 years of famine. Wow, Capitalism is creeping into your Biblical views. Danger, danger!

[bonnie]

The problem is that the rich have all the power and money on their side and, if they get their way, pretty soon SS, Medicare and Medicaid, will be gone.

That is Laissez-faire Capitalism - Capitalism with no safety nets - i.e., pure greed at the expense of the poor.

You see the rich have Lobbyist and the poor have no representation (or very little). We vote these crooks in and what do that do? Serve the guy with the money, resources and Lobbyist. It's called a Plutocracy!

The problem is there are many like that as an excuse.

They seem to think there is X number of dollars in the world and those already rich have all of it.Poppycock.

Given that most in my family are self employed,most that those I am acquainted with are as well.

How did some in my family and the many family businesses we dealt with along the way go from extreme poverty to a very successful business,no lobbyists,no representation?

The poor have more lobbyists and representation than those in poverty with the motivation and work ethic to get out.

Excuses make some people feel good I guess.

[bonnie]

Bonnie, Bonnie, Bonnie....

God placed Joesph into that position, not for his own personal gain or wealth, but to prepare Egypt for 7 years of famine. Wow, Capitalism is creeping into your Biblical views. Danger, danger!

I will be more polite and considerate than you seem to be and not tell you what I think has already crept into your thinking.

Joseph could have failed,unless God forced him.However that is not the point. Joseph was diligent,hardworking and honest.Along with preparing Egypt for 7 years of famine his own status improved/moved up.

[Robert]

How did some in my family and the many family businesses we dealt with along the way go from extreme poverty to a very successful business, no lobbyists,no representation?

[Robert]

Joseph was diligent,hardworking and honest. Along with preparing Egypt for 7 years of famine his own status improved/moved up.

Joseph was a spoiled brat in his early years. His father was partial and that led to the problem of jealousy that sold Joseph into slavery. God allowed Joseph to learn humility through the school of hard knocks. Then He placed him into a position, not for his personal gain, but so he could serve those under him.

[bonnie]

Hopefully with honesty and integrity or did you exploit those working for you? Did you love them as you love yourself?

[bonnie]

Joseph was a spoiled brat in his early years. His father was partial and that led to the problem of jealousy that sold Joseph into slavery. God allowed Joseph to learn humility through the school of hard knocks. Then He placed him into a position, not for his personal gain, but so he could serve those under him.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. Joseph did learn humility through the school of hard knocks.

He didn't have the equivalent of free cell phones,a life of leisure while others worked to feed him,free birth control for irresponsible behavior,food stamps when he didn't feel like extending himself etc.He had the hard knocks we try so hard to protect people from today

You pointed out a valuable lesson for all able bodied individuals

[Robert]

Take a look at the lobbyists for more and more for those that do less and less.

I hear this right-wing spin at work .... At work I know what they are: Racists. I hear their comments day in and day out. It's the black man, on welfare, that's destroying the Country.

No, it's those in Washington, who have placed into power a Plutocracy. Not by the people and for people, but by the rich and for the rich.

After all, we had slavery here in American because the rich wanted cheap labor. Now the same mindset is at work in exploiting folks in China and such.

That's why American is failing, greed.

[Robert]

He didn't have the equivalent of free cell phones, a life of leisure while others worked to feed him, free birth control for irresponsible behavior, food stamps when he didn't feel like extending himself etc.

Yeah, I know, in your eyes it's the poor man causing the problems in America. Well, that's because of your right-wing spin that you believe these lies.

Watch Fox News some more and feed on the self-righteous nonsense. Watch them while you eating your turkey....