Modesty - what do you guys think?

[SivartM]

Don't have any bald spots on your head.

That is something you can control?

And the author was Moses, by the way.

[ClubV12]

Bald spots as the heathen do, yes, it is something you can control. How about having a haircut that leaves letters, numbers or symbols in your hair? Shaving your head. In some cases dread locks.

Moses was merely a proof reader, an editor, the type setter, for God, the author. If you don't like what Moses wrote (or Ellen White for that matter), go right to the source to lodge your complaint.

[doug yowell]

Christianity has a looong history of making the cultural trends of the day into tests of faith. Remember the ban on beards at Avondale College in the 70s?

Was that the 1870's?

[doug yowell]

Christianity has a looong history of making the cultural trends of the day into tests of faith. Remember the ban on beards at Avondale College in the 70s?

I was kept out of La Sierra College/LLU during that same period for having hair that touched my ears and my collar. When I dropped out I didn't cut my hair for 9 years. It was an identity thing. The avant garde didn't have short hair and only Yule Brynner and bald guys were bald guys.There's always been a hip generation that the rest of society eventually catches up to. I believe that EGW recommends that we be neither the first or the last to join cultural fashions as long as it doesn't violate basic Christian standards of modesty.That sounds pretty reasonable to me. As long as our personal presentation is a statement of our identity outside of Christ I have no hard feelings against our institutions for setting such standards.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Don't have any bald spots on your head.

That is something you can control?

In my case, I wish it was.

[cricket]

Wear a hat.

[Woody]

Many have lost their reason, and become hopelessly insane, by following this deforming fashion. Yet the slaves to fashion will continue to thus dress their heads, and suffer horrible disease and premature death, rather than be out of fashion. {RH, October 17, 1871 par. 11}

I have had some experience in using Mrs. S.A. Allen's World's Hair Restorative, also Hall's Vegetable Sicilian Hair Restorative. I have made applications of these preparations upon the head of my husband, to prevent the falling off of the hair. I observed that when using these preparations, he frequently complained of giddiness of the head, and weakness and pain of the eyes. {HR, October 1, 1871 par. 29}

Hatmaking in the Harmon House

The animal pelts he bought would soon begin their transformation into fur top hats. First he would lay the pelt on a table and with a stout brush rub in a solution of mercuric nitrate. This highly poisonous solution was necessary to make the infinitesimal barbs on each strand of fur become more pronounced. Then with either large shears or a scraping knife he would remove the fur from the skin and place it in a stack. After the hair had been laboriously picked out of the fur, the most difficult part of the process began. A device resembling a violin bow but five or six times as big was brought down over the table. Snapping the catgut on the pile of fur on the bench separated, scattered, and gradually deposited the particles in a smaller and finer sheet. Each sheet represented one hat. With further manipulation, the fibers hooked themselves together into what ultimately became the fur fabric of the hat. The rest of the process is difficult to describe, but Ellen eventually learned the simplest part of it, which was shaping the crown of the hat. {1BIO 24.3}

The price of a hat ranged all the way from 75 cents to $15, depending on the quality of the fur. It must be remembered that in those days 75 cents was the pay for ten hours of diligent work of a well-trained artisan. {1BIO 25.1}

Robert Harmon soon discovered, as did others in Portland, that in the South, with its agricultural economy, the prices for hats were much better than they were for those sold locally. In early 1804 the hatters of New England had established stores in Savannah, Georgia. Hats worth $90 a dozen in the North went for $120 a dozen in the South. Robert Harmon made a business trip to Georgia in 1837, the year of Ellen's accident. {1BIO 25.2}

[shelly]

"narrow minded and culturally insensitive"

I think that pretty well sums up the christian life in a nut shell. Christians should be narrow minded, entering the kingdom through a narrow gate. Christians are not callled to be like the world, to follow the latest fashions, to acquire "things" or "dress" in such a manner that we duplicate the world. Our message should be consistent, regardless of what is or isn't popular at the time. If that means we are not "culturally sensitive" I don't have a problem with that.

Apply the dress and health principles of EGW you WILL find that dread locks are unhealthy (and wordly).

Actually, Jesus was quite libral. And dreadlocks are quite beautiful if they are well kept, just like any other hair style. It is only an ill informed person who would assume that dreadlocks were unhealthy or worldly.I plan on locking my hair in the future. I think it is more healthy than using chemicals or extreme heat to alter my natural texture. I think EGW would agree.

[shelly]

From Leviticus, for those who think Ellen White is "so yesterday", we have some guidelines for the people.

Don't have any bald spots on your head. Don't trim the edges of your beard. Don't cut yourself (body piercings).

If that sounds culturally insensitive, take it up with the author, God.

Cutting ones self was not equivelent to piercings. Heathen used to cut themselves in worship to false gods or in mourning for the dead. Balding ones head was also used in heathen worship. These instructions were talking about not worshiping the Living God in the same manner as heathens worshiped thier idols. These passages have little to do with modesty and everything to do with worship.

[ClubV12]

The heathen also used piercings, not just the kind of cutting we see in some forms of radical worship today. Bald is one such fashion in favor today. If your mostly bald already, like me, thats OK. But I wouldn't recommend you go out of your way to shave your head bald as a fashion statement, "as the heathen do". The biblical principle here is don't follow the worlds fashion trends.

It is not an assumption dread locks are unhealthy. That point could be argued from a medical as well as common sense stand point, not to mention a fashion stand point. Their origination is closely associated with heathen worship. For our schools to note that dread locks are not acceptable on campus is well within reason. When you decide to give up dread locks you can expect to loose about 1/3 of your hair. The other option is to pay a hair dresser to remove them, in which case the expense is VERY high "cost per dread lock". The high price of being a slave to fashion...

Anybody see that recent TV news program about corn rows and the health related problems they are now discovering about them?

[shelly]

Dreadlocks are not unhealthy. Cornrows are only unhealth when done incorrectly. Individuals making these statements have little exposure to good hair care techniques dealing with ethnic hair. Most black women remember having long cornrowed hair as children (midback, waist, hip length) until they stop the "unhealthy" practices of braiding, cornrowing, ect their hair and start wearing it in straight styles. Dreading is seen as a natural hair style-more often now associated with being natural and organic more than anything else. Hairloss associated with dreadlocks comes from the fact that hair is not combed when locked-just retwisted. Of course when they are combed out you loose alot of hair. Many women tighten their own locks for free. It is problematic that those uneducated in the nature of ethnic hair seem to think they can speak about its care. (This is general, not directed at you). Maybe if they would become educated about how ethnic hair is cared for they would stop making statements about shaving heads or wearing dreads. Traction alopecia is only when someone does the style too tightly. This is usually a sign that the hairdresser does not know what they are doing.

Piercing was not always associated with heathen practices. In fact, the Jews were told to pierce the ear of their servents who would stay in servatude.

[Dottie]

Two responses.

1. I fostered children for about ten years. One of the first children (age 3) I got had braids. Not being aware, I at first thought he was a she. I took him home, and gave him and his brother (with a short haircut) baths. I had no idea how much dirt can be kept in braids. I bathed the boys and wrapped them each in a towel. The one with the braids had black drops all around his shoulders--from the dirty hair, which I thought I had washed. The nest morning, I took him to the hair stylist, (the owner of the adoption agency had ordered met to) who had to cut off each braid with scissors before she could trim it neatly. He didn't get dirty hair again as long as he was with me. I would only wash his hair weekly, as I knew that it was fragile, and could break easily.

2. Being in my seventh decade, and having many uncles and male cousins, I fully agree with most of the men's comments. Females need to show their beauty in their demeanor and dress.

[CoAspen]

This long discussion has brought to mind what happens when a women accuses someone of rape. Here is how the conversation quite often goes....

"Of course that is terrible! That is never to be condoned!

"By the way, how was she dressed? Was she flirting? Had she had something to drink? Was her behavior provocative?"

"Oh no, we are not suggesting that the person had a right to perpetrate the crime, but.......!"

Sound familiar? Even movies and TV know that scenario, a woman does not go to trial with out being dragged through any possible 'mud'!

Yep,men have been trying to get off the hook since Adam, always blame the women, how ever subtle it can be done. We are too weak to stay in control our selves.

Hockey puck.....stand up, be a real man and stop the blame game!!!!

[Woody]

Do you have any OTHER thoughts on it. Or have you said your peace CoA ? lol

[CoAspen]

Well.....not at the moment!!

But I reserve my right and the opportunity to defend women again....!!!

[Woody]

Quote:

opportunity to defend women

i wouldn't know ANYthing about that.

[doug yowell]

This long discussion has brought to mind what happens when a women accuses someone of rape. :

So now when a woman dresses in a sexually alluring way and it triggers an impure thought in a man's mind it's the moral equivalent of his being a rapist?? Where does that come from?? I think you're getting this discussion confused with the one on the other thread,CoA.

[Dr. Shane]

Maybe it is just me but I have never heard anyone say that a woman deserved to get raped because of the way she dressed.

I did hear a story once about a woman that got drunk, invited a drunk guy over to her apartment, started making out with him and when he wanted more and she said no, he raped her. I know some said that in that circumstance there was a lot she could have done to avoid it. That is kind of like me driving my car in Mexico on roads that the State Department has warned against and getting robbed. There are certain things we can do to avoid danger.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

This long discussion has brought to mind what happens when a women accuses someone of rape. :

So now when a woman dresses in a sexually alluring way and it triggers an impure thought in a man's mind it's the moral equivalent of his being a rapist?? Where does that come from?? I think you're getting this discussion confused with the one on the other thread,CoA.

U mean about Jeremiah being raped? That doesn't really apply here.

[doug yowell]

U mean about Jeremiah being raped? That doesn't really apply here.

Yeah, neither does CoA's analogy.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

....woman dresses in a sexually alluring way and it triggers an impure thought in a man's mind it's the moral equivalent of his being a rapist??

May I loan you some glasses....you seem to reading something that was not said. I will try to make it plainer for you......it's about making it the women's fault!!

Read your own post...'alluring women triggers impure thought'....change the thought patterns! Isn't that what belief in Christ brings about??????

[Dr. Shane]

Some may find this hard to believe but I have actually had impure thoughts when there were no alluring women in sight.

[CoAspen]

No..you didn't!!!

[shelly]

Two responses.

1. I fostered children for about ten years. One of the first children (age 3) I got had braids. Not being aware, I at first thought he was a she. I took him home, and gave him and his brother (with a short haircut) baths. I had no idea how much dirt can be kept in braids. I bathed the boys and wrapped them each in a towel. The one with the braids had black drops all around his shoulders--from the dirty hair, which I thought I had washed. The nest morning, I took him to the hair stylist, (the owner of the adoption agency had ordered met to) who had to cut off each braid with scissors before she could trim it neatly. He didn't get dirty hair again as long as he was with me. I would only wash his hair weekly, as I knew that it was fragile, and could break easily.

2. Being in my seventh decade, and having many uncles and male cousins, I fully agree with most of the men's comments. Females need to show their beauty in their demeanor and dress.

I am confused at your first response. What your describe is neglect, not braids. I am black, I have worn braids off and on all my life, and have never experienced anything like what you talk about. My sister currently keeps my nieces hair in braids. It is washed, conditioned, and rebraided weekly as it should be with no problems. She has beautiful hip lenght hair with none of the issues you describe. But this thread is about modesty so I will let this issue drop.

[Woody]

While there is concern with modesty. EGW also warns us about wearing too much clothing on certain parts of the body.

Quote:

"Because it is the fashion, many females place over their breasts paddings, to give the form the appearance of well-developed breasts. These appendages attract the blood to the chest, and produce a dry, irritating heat. The veins, because of unnatural heat, become contracted, and the natural circulation is obstructed. These appendages, in connection with other bad habits of dressing and eating, result in obstructing the process of nature, making a healthy development of the breasts impossible. And if these become mothers, there cannot be a natural secretion of the fluids, to have a sufficient supply of nourishment for their offspring. " {HR, September 1, 1871 par. 4}